- cross-posted to:
- fuck_ai@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- fuck_ai@lemmy.world
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Intentionally breaking laws sounds like something that should be prosecuted.
It will always fall on the driver of the vehicle, as it should. I don’t care how self driving your car is, it has a steering wheel, an accelerator pedal, and a brake pedal and in the driver seat YOU are responsible with how you operate your vehicle. If u decide to trust a self driving feature that’s YOUR mistake. I would love to blame all these crashes on Tesla but the reality is that all these drivers aids and self driving cars having accidents is proof that you should be the one in control of your own vehicle. No crying about how the automotive nannies didn’t stop you from crashing the vehicle your driving, take responsibility. Don’t like it? Don’t trust the “self driving” nonsense (read: glorified advanced cruise control). Now one thing I don’t agree with is advertising as self driving, and I strongly believe self driving vehicles in public roadways should be ILLEGAL!
Except the problem here is Tesla is lying about a product to encourage people to use it illegally and unsafely. At some point there’s extra deaths to blame solely on tesla’s lies.
Can you point to one of those lies? Because every time I push the FSD button it says ‘keep hands on the wheel be prepared to take over at any time’ right there on the screen.
Full Self Driving, the name of the feature is literally a lie. Its used all over in the marketing for the vehicle. Most car companies call comparable features “driving assistance” or “lane control” etc.
There is a significant difference between lane control and FSD. Lane control just keeps you in the lane so you don’t have to actively steer. FSD actually drives the car, changes lanes, makes turns, stops for traffic lights and stop signs, navigates intersections, etc. With the current v14, you can get in your car, type in a destination, and then not steer or push the pedals at all and the car will take you to a parking space at your destination. Lane control does not do that. I’m not aware of any other company that does that.
Tesla has the highest accident rate per driver for a reason. FSD has routinely plowed into children, emergency vehicles etc. Theres a number of lawsuits against them around the world.
Other companies have implemented these more limited systems (that often include better sensors such as lidar) not because they can’t do it but rather because they are more cautious about brazenly lying to people about the capabilities of their system.
Adaptive cruise control is good enough for most people and has been a proven technology for 20+ years. FSD is just downright dangerous.
I like my car’s version that’s just adaptive cruise control combined with using lidar maps of major roads to do lane-centering. I can go on a road trip and not touch the gas, break, or steering wheel for hours, but I have to drive it myself through residential neighborhoods.
what type of car? my outback isn’t bad but it’s not quite that good, especially if there’s a stiff breeze
Cadillac CT5
They’ll even pass slow cars then get back over.
And none of that “touch the steering wheel every few min” stuff, but it uses infrared pupil trackers to make sure you’re mostly looking at the road and not sleeping.
The idea of infrared pupil trackers is terrifying.
Imagine the tracking potential for insurance companies, law enforcement, etc…
I know this is offtopic, just the first thought that comes to my mind :(
Googley eye napping.
yeah that’s definitely going to be a bit higher spec than my Wilderness lmao. The Outback will maintain lane and do centering but does not like even moderate turns, roads with questionable paint, or gusty conditions. It’s great for highway use and it definitely won’t pass other cars for me, but it will take me pretty far off the beaten path as long as I’m not trying to follow a jeep. Hell yeah, sounds like we’ve both got solid cars that fit our needs.
This is good enough imo!
states just need to ban teslas from public road
Next will be teslas without airbags. Because why not.
TBF, if they’re going to lock you in a burning car unable to exit, killing you with the dashboard or sterring column would be a mercy killing compared to burning to death inside.
replace the airbag with a letal injection perhaps?
/s
the incompetence of this guy holy.
Oh hell naw, I thought I bit the onion 💀
I’ll play the Devil’s Advocate. 15MPH over isn’t bad and is often necessary. Sometimes you have to get away from another vehicle or overtake on a 2-lane highway.
For any Europeans horrified by that statement, our roads were designed for cars from the very start.
Quick question: What is the autobahn?
FSD as it is currently with human supervision is 10x safer than driving without FSD. Source Tesla 2025 Q2 report vs reports from NHTSA.
Edit: some time in and I’ve only gotten
ad hominem responsesinsults and downvotes. Please make a convincing argument that I’m wrong or maybe realize you’re just downvoting facts you don’t like if you don’t bring your own.Edit: non Tesla source showing only two fatalities over all FSD miles, no matter what number you come up with for miles with FSD even at 10% of Teslas reported numbers it’s safer than a human.
The key is “with human supervision”. Calling it Full Self Driving with “Supervised” in parentheses aftwards while putting out videos where they say the only reason there’s some behind the wheel is because of regulations (those annoying “regulations” amirite?) leads people to think they don’t really need to supervise the driving of the car.
Couple that with the fact that there are actual full self driving cars (Waymo) there’s even greater confusion.
People have been killed because of the misconceptions about Telsa cars actually being full self driving. Which they aren’t, they cheap out on the hardware needed for that to be possible, let alone the software.
I agree the terminology is misleading and should be changed. If you’ve ever driven in one no driver with it on can be confused, the system will yell at you to look at the road.
Waymo is ahead right now in geofenced areas for sure, I like Waymo, this post was just specifically about Tesla.
Whether FSD is possible with out LiDAR is still an open question, but I think the safety personnel in Austin will be removed soon which will answer that question.
Source Tesla 2025 Q2 report
uhhhhhhh
Those are financial documents if they’re lying and you can prove it sue them and make some money lol
if they’re lying and you can prove it sue them and make some money lol
UHHHHHHHH
This conversation isn’t productive. Agree to disagree have a nice day.
Edit: lol still downvoting me while you never provided your “easy to find” video showing FSD is easily fooled. Downvotes and mocking don’t make a good argument.
lol now i gotta actually go back and downvote you
Thank you for the source! I agree that Tesla should’ve halted FSD and went all in on ensuring FSD sees and stops for busses, this is dangerous and mishandled.
My original claim wasn’t that FSD or Tesla is perfect, just already safer than humans.
Please note my below sources are from 2024 to get a full year and have data before the Trump administration. This means that the software is older and so doesn’t hit my 10x claim but does hit 5x. I’m confident 2025 will hit 10x. (And if we keep to my original claim being FSD specific, ie not including autopilot it is already at 10x.)
https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/nhtsa-estimates-39345-traffic-fatalities-2024
1.2 fatalities per 100 million miles
Tesla 2024 fleet size(yes a Tesla source but tesladeaths is not up to date on fleet size)
https://x.com/tesla_ai/status/1905644814483251709
2.16 billion miles 2024 Expected deaths 34
Actual deaths 6 (once again being favorable to the opposing view including autopilot deaths in this total. For comparison, even Tesla deaths.com only claims 2 fatalities involving the use of FSD use over all time)
(Would’ve used this source for fleet size miles as well but not updated since 2019)
I’ve used a basically entirely biased against Tesla source for deaths. With their numbers Tesla fsd is still multiple times safer than a human.
For the record, I could find no record of FSD actually hitting a child getting on a bus. It’s still a supervised system and human drivers are aware it doesn’t work with busses and take action to stop for the bus. The coming update does in fact now stop for busses so it is being addressed, albeit I agree not with the speed and seriousness such a miss should merit.
I’d rather have a system with a human and computer ensuring safety. Even if at the moment there are still for sure situations where the computer is far worse than a human, it being better in the majority of cases still makes it more safe to have than not have.
I only answered because I think you have a shit opinion.
I didn’t read your response and I probably won’t. Feel free to defend Musk more and pay attention to me less.
Bye!
I can’t think of a less trustworthy source. Rolling a pile of dice with words on them is likely to tell the truth more often.
Or try this link from the government of Austin Link
Fair enough. The NHTSA probe is for 2.9 million vehicles and 53 incidents. That is far below the level of incidents humans have over that span of vehicles for any appreciable level of drive time.
The same NHTSA that had its employees removed from these probes by the person being investigated?
Do you think a car that alerts you if you look away from the road and forces you to pay attention or you lose your ability to use the new features is less safe than a vehicle that is unaware if the driver is texting/sleeping or whatever?
What type of source would you trust on this? If you don’t trust NHTSA what is your basis for saying Tesla FSD is unsafe?
the safest thing to do, is to not drive at all! I never trusted humans anyways, with their strange motivations, and how inconsistent their behavior. its best if we let go and let the machines take us where they will
No disagreement that the safer option is not driving at all.
I don’t think a car driving itself where you tell it is giving up human self determination tho.
Do you think Tesla invented that concept? Also clearly the systems don’t work. There are literally pornographic films of people fucking in the back seat while nobody is driving.
I agree that it is incredibly harmful that we don’t have any scientific institutions that we can trust now that the Nazi ruined them. There is no replacement.
I never claimed that Tesla invented that system just stated that cars with it (teslas others) are safer than the majority of ones without.
Your second sentence is impossible with the way the system works, perhaps pornos aren’t good sources for accurate information?
If there’s no replacement for solid trustworthy data in your mind I don’t think this is a worthwhile conversation if you will trust literally no source.
Are you really rejecting reality? Just go on YouTube and you can find plenty of non-porn videos of people defeating the shitty attention system. I just chose porn as an example to show just how absurd your trust in Daddy Nazi’s lies is.
You know what, you’re right.
You know what has an even better safety track record than a car with FSD supervised by a human?
Trains.
If your concern is actually safety, advocate for the safest methods of transportation - mass public transit, coupled with pedestrian- and bicycle-safe roads, and advocate against passenger cars, in any form.
I would love walkable cities. I frequently bike to work you’ll get no disagreement from me there.
It’s not safer. I know because I’ve driven one. Not only does it make it easier to get distracted for just a moment, but also, you pay less attention to the surroundings, handling of the vehicle, situational awareness, etc. Because you know you don’t “have to”.
And when it makes mistakes (and it does quite often) you’re less prepared to deal with it.
Now you’re going to parrot “but you’re supposed to be attentive at all times”, and yes, you’re right, but we’re humans. And yes, you can absolutely extrapolate that FSD is less safe because of it, because it definitely puts the final safely measure on a weak part: us.
Adaptive cruise control plus some level of Lane assist is, in my experience, safer. You’re still driving but you can relax your muscles, therefore allowing you to be less tired. More so if you have a manual transmission.
Anecdotal. I’ve also driven one and felt it safer. I didn’t lead with that in my post because anecdotes aren’t real evidence. Please share an actual study or report or information showing it’s more dangerous.
I agree right now is a weird in between as humans will keep looking at the road but may begin to daydream. But Austin with no one in the drivers seat shows were nearly past this in between.
I don’t have stats, but my personal feeling is that car safety features trump full self driving.
Eg, you are actively driving (which ensures you are engaged and dont fall asleep, etc), but if the car sees something it can react (drifting out of lane, car slows down ahead of you, person walks in road, etc).
That seems so much safer in my opinion.
(That works for driving around town, ofc I think adaptive cruise control + the above safety features is safe for highways, etc)
For the moment absolutely, that’s why the system requires your attention and will lock you out of using it fairly quickly if you are distracted. Tesla drivers on FSD are forced by their car to pay attention to the road. Surely people can see how that alone makes it safer than all of the cars that don’t know their driver is texting or whatever in a car that can’t drive itself at all.
Tesla drivers on FSD are forced by their car to pay attention to the road.
i’ve personally seen this not to be true and it’s not hard to find videos verifying my position.
Could you please share a video showing this demonstrated on version 13.2.9? I will happily watch and admit you were right if you can find a video of the current version being easily tricked.
Edit: To anyone reading this comment in the future think about what is revealed when not only is a video provided but I’m downvoted for merely asking for it.
If it can ensure you are looking at the road, that sounds good.
Not sure if it seems as safe as you in full operation of the car for turns etc around town, but its a good safety feature to ensure you arent distracted.
Not only can it, it is a required part of FSD. You can not operate it without it making sure your eyes are on the road. Every source looking at actual incidents per mile driven shows that FSD (and Waymo and the others) is already safer than human drivers. I’d be happy to be proven wrong on that.
There are incidents. It’s not perfect, but right now that’s why humans must still be actively paying attention.
Bot found
Did you even look at my account/post history?
Yes.
Tesla autopilot performs better than humans per mile because it runs mostly on the freeway which has a far lower chance of accidents per mile than slower city areas which are more difficult to navigate.
So you admit I’m not a bot? A persistent chiefs fan is a real person.
I will if you retract your statement about Tesla being better than real drivers by using Tesla as a source.
I won’t retract my statement but I added a link to tesladeaths.com showing that FSD has only caused 2 fatalities over its entire lifetime of miles. Even at 1/10th of Tesla’s reported miles that’s safer than a human.
Neither of those deaths were the current software version either so currently FSD 13.2.9 has caused 0 fatalities.
Tesla lies about this stuff why would I trust them https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/florida-keys/article311553847.html
Removed by mod
Care to respond to my argument with reason or evidence and not resort to ad-hominem?
that wasn’t an ad hominem, it was an insult
Calling me stupid is attacking my character in my view but sure I mislabeled it when it was an insult. Your point?
Removed by mod
Again you’ve yet to actually debate my sources or provide your own. You may continue to insult me or mock me as much as you want but I’m not interested in a conversation without actual discussion of the facts.
I’m not interested in a conversation without actual discussion of the facts.
are you sure? that seems to be far from the case, as you must get the last word in. now we’re just teasing you for fun.
you, too, can die at the hands of AI and become forever enshrined as algorithmic data to help improve Tesla’s subscription services sales to the very wealthy and hostile
Yep. This is inevitable. Whenever we get to the point where consumers are controlling the aggression of the self driving, which will happen no matter laws are past.
Ultimately it’s all just code on hardware.
Tesla is definitely doing their fuck around, still waiting to find out on this one. Eventually that liability will catch up with them. The question is months, years, or decades.
Since it seems to be unsafe at any speed, why not.
Because now it can hurt others going even faster
Maybe it comes with a “scape the police over the border” bottom.
Since it’s Elon more likely to go directly to the police station
The less time you’re at the cars mercy…
Because there are levels of unsafe and this is more unsafe
I mean, yeah. True. But to push back a little, driving at the actual speed of traffic is often safer than driving the official speed limit.
The real world and written law don’t always line up, the speed limit is one of those areas.
Certainly, especially when it comes to things like MERGING which is an arcane art to some.
When a self driving car breaks the law, the CEO should get the demerit points on their own licence, and if they lose their licence, the cars can’t drive anymore.
Somebody needs to be responsible, otherwise ban self driving until someone figures it out. Impound the vehicle if need be.
What? You can’t just demand accountability from AI bros, that would destroy their whole business model.
Man, holding the company financially accountable for all traffic violations would be magnificent.
It’s a shame we’re too stupid/weak to pull it off.
CEOs like you’re talking about, they dont drive.
the only time they’ll step behind the wheel of a car is for a pleasure cruise in some multi million dollar supercar on a track, or a closed / private road.
So what? Them driving is not relevant to this at all. The idea is that the cars they sell become illegal.
How the world works by a 7 year old
That would be funny but better yet, the entire line of cars gets the feature deleted from them and customers are reimbursed the entire value of the car plus interest in exchange for having risked their lives testing an unstable and dangerous vehicle.
bail out the idiots that bought cybertrucks?
eehhhh…
This hurts Tesla more
The second one of these cars cause a fatal collision due to wanton disregard of the law on part of the CEO, he should be held criminally liable.
Tesla drivers have the highest accident rates. There’s already thousands of civil lawsuits. They should have prosecuted him years ago.
That has already happened…like a handful of times at least.
They shouldn’t even be able to market it as self driving if they don’t insure the self driving mode itself.
Just because Elon is above the law doesn’t mean you are, even if you’re in a Tesla. Good luck.
the cow catcher i put on front? with all those “decorative” bones and limbs in it? why yes it’s purely cosmetic and is not at all indicative of my premeditated intention to FSD through a crowd.
Even if you’re just minding your business when a sleeping pilled-out middle manager from Subway corporate plows into your 98 Corolla in their Tesla at 100 mph leaving your family without a father and source of income because a billionaire nazi who’s constantly off his nut on ketamine decided rules are stupid and don’t apply to him and the entire societal structure designed to prevent this from happening has been hollowed out by incompetent bigots who absolutely rate high on the sociopath scale because nazi media has ensnared 51% of the population and now you dead.
can it be my old shitty 94 ford tempo instead i really hated that car
I agree with you but may I offer you a comma in these trying times?
They’re optional
Take a breath, dude.
Edit: lol at the downvotes. It’s just a gag about the lack of punctuation on a comment that I otherwise agree with.
They’re correct, though.
Yes.
And now you dead.
I’m not sure what this system does, but my non-Tesla car can adjust its intelligent cruise control by speed limit signs it sees, and you can tell it to have a buffer. Mine is set for +5, so if the sign says 45 miles per hour, the car drives itself at 50 mph.
If it’s something like that, which you set yourself, it’s probably fine. Just know what the police in your area enforce. Where I live you can generally go five over without an issue, ten over on the freeways. Everyone does this, so if you go the speed limit you end up annoying everyone.
I’ve driven by a few radar speed indicators in my car, and I’m consistently going 4 km/h less than what my digital speedometer says, regardless of speed. I find it difficult to believe this is an accident. So if I had your vehicle and it behaved like my speedometer does, I would still only be +1 over the limit. Also, I now drive with my speedometer +5 to +9 relative to the speed limit, which keeps me more in line with the traffic around me.
So dumb that society collectively agreed that 35 means 40, 40 means 45, 45 means 50, etc.
There’s a little more to it than that. They also need to consider that, in cars with an analogue speed dial, the actual speed is not displayed precisely. Plus, there may be minor discrepancies between the speed dial and the actual speed, which can be affected by non-standard tyres etc. So a small “buffer” in acceptable speeds is pretty reasonable.
I recall being told by someone at a Mitsubishi factory that car manufacturers actually intentionally set the speed dials to be slightly higher speed than reality to accommodate for people’s need to break the rules just a little…!
Can confirm the last part.
Almost every car with speed control set to, for examole, 50 kph was metered at 45kph on GPS.I was also told it’s about the calibration of the radar guns. They are calibrated to -7/+0 meaning if you are going 47 mph there is a chance you are picked up as going 40. That said if you are going 41 or 42 there is a good chance the cop picks you up as going less than 40.
That I understand, but as the person I replied to said that I hope you read, people intentionally go 50 in the 45.
So the grace window you mention is irrelevant; you’d be doing 51 in the 45.
In Germany there are speedtraps everywhere.
No bs cop on-site decides, that today you have chosen a bad day.
It makes us feel like we’re speedy little rebels. 🤣
But then why don’t we all shoplift packs of gum every week?
Speeding is the one law everyone agrees is fun and acceptable to break a bit, despite being more dangerous than many actual crimes.
Because when the road is built for a safe speed target of 65, then the limit is set at 55 instead, yeah you get people who are breaking the legal limit but not the actual safe speed.
Edit: forgot a link: https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/design/standards/151007.cfm
tl;dr: design speeds and speed limits are not necessarily related. “Selection of a posted speed is an operational decision for which the owner and operator of the facility is responsible.”
Where I’m at, they’re trying to do that plan where they lower speed limits and change the roads to reflect the slower speeds with narrowing, or bikes lanes, or speed bumps etc to reduce car accident deaths, but they ignored the entire part about changing the roads to reflect the new speeds, and just lowered the speeds.
So you got these 4-6 lane roads that were designed for 50km/h and now they’re 30-40km/h and absolutely no one, is doing the posted limit, at the new 30 areas, not even cops.
All I can come up with is now if you speed like people may have before, you’re really over the limit, so it’s easier to ticket someone? Like before people might have gone 55-60 in the 50 zone, but now going 55 is well over 40, and impound level over 30.
Do you think that every or most roads have the wrong speed limit? I sure don’t.
If everyone is speeding on a road and not constantly getting into accidents does that not indicate that the posted speed limit is incorrect?
If it didn’t, it would be pretty damn annoying as cars always show higher than actual speed. I’ve had to set our BMW to do +8km/h so that it actually does 120km/h on GPS and not 112.
as cars always show higher than actual speed
Although that is true, your car is quite extreme in that regard. In Germany cars are not allowed to deviate by more than 3kph at speeds below 100, and 3% at speeds above 100. I doubt BMW uses different speedometer for cars sold in foreign countries so I’m pretty sure there is something wrong with yours. Maybe you installed smaller diameter tires than from factory?
Hmmh, could be, though both are “from the factory”, the winter/summer tires are slightly different sizes. But the allowed error in the EU overall (or at least in Finland) is 10% +4km/h, so it’s still well withing “spec”.
Are your tires fully inflated?
This is kinda dumb. So they have to adjust speed limits below safe levels so you don’t get over it?
slips the cop a hundred, or five
“enjoy your trip, carry on”
which comes with higher speeds and more frequent lane changes
Go kiss a concrete pillar, ya duds
Why do we continue to allow this company to exist and break the law?
Corruption
Texas
Money
By these powers combined…
They finally did it. They automated crime 👍
