Why do you have such a strong reaction, my child?
eyetwitch
I can still hear the condescension in that statement. I don’t think I’ve had such a strong reaction to any character on any TV show or movie in (checks watch) jfc 30+ years
Greetings, fellow geezer! They just don’t make them like this any more.
For good reason, it’d be too much like RL right now
So true, I think it was a good idea to not explore her past, to find out how her character came to be. I think we may have ended up sympathizing with the character if we knew what drove her to behave the way she did (even as we were equally appalled by her behaviour)
Honestly, the point of her character is that she’s a narcissistic sociopath. She’s not a good person. She’s a cautionary tale that is specifically showing how toxic that becomes when combined with dogmatic theocracy, even in the context of a nominally progressive religion.
You are spot on, I was looking at it from the perspective of when I first saw those episodes. To borrow from another show, Babylon 5’s Comes the Inquistor - the character seems to be the anti-Delenn.
*I actually wrote alot more in response to your comment, but the tl;dr was just as long as the response, once I’d composed my thoughts it was straying into essay territory and we’re all just here for a distraction 😁
Oh yeah, B5 is another one of my favorites. Some episodes are definitely cringey, as a lot of tv from the 90s was, but overall, it tells an incredible story.
And I’m floored at how pertinent a lot of its cautionary tales are to how the last decade or two have unfolded.
I dunno. Kent Hovind has some similarities, and I don’t think his backstory is particularly remarkable either way. No indications of having an abusive parent or anything like that, not as far as I know, anyway. He’s a real piece of shit to the point that he doesn’t even get invited to the big Christian apologist parties anymore. His son, Eric Hovind, does get invited to those parties, and he doesn’t talk to his dad anymore.
I do kinda feel like the series ending didn't make much sense for her character.
Highly self-righteous religious leader having a crisis of faith because her gods chose a literal alien over her, sure I buy that. Becoming a satanist about it? I don’t know… I guess it makes sense, she gets to have the same set of beliefs and worldview she had before but now inverted and doubling down on the put-upon and persecuted by all angle.
But to also throw in allying with the face of the occupation? The brutal event that almost certainly was foundational to her becoming the kind of person she was? I don’t buy it. I don’t think she should have been able to stomach being a satanist and doing it alongside Dukat of all people.
The broken circle arc at the beginning of the show handled it better; yes the reactionary elements of Bajor’s culture and religion ultimately aligned and had a lot in common with the Cardasian empire, but it was hardly intentional. Bajoran reactionaries couldn’t stand that contradiction when it came to light. I think it makes Winn’s character less interesting for being able to.
I agree with your points, but now you’ve got me thinking maybe she wasn’t convinced/didn’t really believe. What if she was the equivalant of an American Televangelist? What if her primary goal was just power (in their case money)? At that point it doesn’t matter how she achieved that power, Prophets, Pah-Wraiths, to her character they’re just two sides of the same coin. Once someone is at that point, even taking in her people’s most egregious enemy doesn’t seem far fetched…I’m not sure if I could ever be that cynical, yet gestures around
They certainly could have gone that rout. It would have made her situationship with Dukat make more sense.
Overall, I think DS9 was a rare inversion of the usual trek formula - the writing started strong but got shakier as the series went on. That got masked somewhat by the actors becoming more comfortable with their characters, so the performances carried where the world building and arcs may not have landed on their own.
inhales
MY CHILD…
We need some type of punctuation that conveys contempt.
“My child.”
-As said by Winn Adami
That is a statement or a buzzword. We need some kick ass punctuation. It would quickly become more popular than the !.
how about italicization?
My child.
-Kai Winn Adami
“My child 🙃"
She’s just the best at being the worst.
Marc Alaimo was great but I think Louise gets the crown. Her cloying malevolence was just so believable. Everyone knows someone like that in their life, it’s the same reason Umbridge worked so well in Harry Potter. The fake nice person.
Dukat on the other hand is just plain evil. Sure they tried to make him more relatable with Ziyal but in the end he was just an evil asshole, not many layers.
I agree. Dukat was bad, we knew he was bad, he knew he was bad, everyone knew he was a baddie
I believe, Winn believed she was good, which is what made that character so easy to hate. We all know people like that in our own lives
the focus on her in the last 7 episodes did my heart so good.
It was nice to wrap up her story arc. I’m still not sure how I felt the storyline of her + Dukat + Sisko + The Pah Wraiths. I understand that was her redemption story, but I feel as though her character got off too easy. She’ll go down as a hero by her final act, when she should also be remembered for the her endless conniving pursuit of power
By and far. I didn’t watch until pandemic, and it was my intro to Louise and I fell in love with her as an actor. Seeing wholesome comments about her from colleagues and fans alike but watching her become a vile and reprehensible creature of a person is the epitome of art.
The only other actor I’d put up there in that category of very nice person who plays an evil git is Jack Gleeson. He really made us love to hate Joffrey.
Edit: And Imelda Staunton actually. Umbridge is the same energy and Imelda seems very kind.
Alan Rickman was a good dude by all accounts. I think it’s fairly common for villains to be played by nice people. Usually the complete assholes don’t want to play villains… don’t want to give away what they’re really like.
Gul Dukat was Voldemort, but Kai Winn was Delores Umbridge.
I loved to hate Louise Fletcher’s characters. Nobody did it better.
If they just started watching wouldn’t they call her Vedek Winn? She isn’t elected Kai until almost season 3.
They’re just really fast at binging Star Trek.
That user watching trek like:
She is one of the best characters though. That doesn’t mean she’s likable but she creates conflict which is interesting/entertaining.
You are absolutely correct! If you want engagement post a Kai Winn meme 😂
That’s one sore spot for every one, even people who are long time lurkers on any platform will have an opinion on that character. I myself would normally just have a sensible chuckle, or a brief exhalation of amusement…but when anyone brings up Kai Winn, I too must voice my opinion
100% It reminds me of the piece of shit kid from The Strain. Even having me hate them is an achievement. Having a person actually feel or care strongly about a character is not easy to do.
Now I’m trying to come up with a show involving only likeable characters.
Just brave heroes, funny sidecharacters and hot villains.
The Fifth Element
She is one of my favorite characters, too. She’s one of the best most vile repulsive idiotic and self-righteous characters in TV history.
She made a career of it. Back in the 70s, she won an Oscar for the equally evil Nurse Ratched in One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest.
She’s so interesting too, because she does genuinely believe that her actions are for the good of Bajor. I don’t know if this makes her sanctimonious air better or worse
Yep, that’s what I meant by self-righteous. And idiotic.
“You’re risking civil war…over a couple of soil reclamators.”
Louise Fletcher played her so well! She made Winn easy to hate. Awesome actress!
Nurse Rat Shit! She really is phenomenal at portraying unbearable characters.
She’s my favorite story in The Lion, The Witch, And The Audacity Of This Bitch.
If your favorite character isn’t Morn then you aren’t a real fan. That Morn, he’ll talk your ear off!
Winn Adami is in the running for best Star Trek villain of all time.
Yeah but the top three spots are taken…
- Weyoun 5
- Weyoun 8
- Weyoun 7
The top 50 is somehow all Jeffrey Combs
For other “fun” sci-fi Louise Fletcher roles, check out Invaders From Mars, Strange Invaders, and Brainstorm.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: we need an episode of Celebrity Deathmatch between Kai Winn and Delores Umbridge
She’s the Umbridge of DS9
You have that backwards.
from a “oh my god she does so good in that role”, yeah i see it. she’s so hateable. i can see actors enjoying watching louise fletcher, i mean i do and i have a little community theater experience even though i’m not that great.
my favorite character is odo though. love rene.
Garak, Quark, and Odo were my top 3 (not in that order). I always enjoyed a good Garak episode, but the episode where Quark thinks he’s finally out-witted Odo, when Odo had booked the holo-suite for his anniversary with Nerys was one of my favourites
This is a time when the difference between “good” and “well” are important. She did well.
