Archive article: https://archive.ph/LJPiZ
A new survey showing that 82 percent of Jewish Israelis support the expulsion of Gazans was met with disbelief among those who stubbornly believe that the extremists are outliers. But these trends are as consistent as they are shocking
I support expelling israelis.
The Israeli media has been full of overt calls for and endorsements of just outright genocide for over a year now.
At one point a prime time media show was ‘debating’ just fucking nuking Gaza.
Israeli social media has also been absolutely full of average people with genocidal rhetoric for over a year.
… They just say it in Hebrew, not English… most of the time.
This isn’t suprising to anyone who can use google translate, or read supplied English subtitles/captions.
Reading about this stuff on the Israeli lead news network KAN is… Interesting. When the complete eradication of Gazans is being talked about it’s very blasé and never takes responsibility. For example, this report says Hamas are in fact the ones screwing up Gaza aid efforts, and this one richly claims that the IDF did not kill anyone at an aid site. The IDF alleges that they investigated themselves and found that they weren’t guilty.
The entire last twoish years have have been doubly insane for people like myself, because:
Though I am not Jewish, my cousins all are. They are all secular, American, liberal to lefty Jews by the heritage and ethnicity of their father, and his culture that they maintain.
They are all against the genocide, but according to current, general, right wing sentiment… they either don’t exist or are self hating.
I can only imagine this has all been even more insane for them.
Nearly every pro-Palestine protest on every campus in the US that I’ve read about or seem… has at bare minimum had sizeable numbers of Jewish Americans at it, if not being co-organized by them or headlining them as speakers.
… Meanwhile, I’ve been anti Zionist my whole life, and every single actual Israeli I’ve ever met has been a racist, anti-Islamic Zionist… and when I point this out, almost every white liberal or self described lefty has called me an antisemite.
Then on my own side of the family, my dad and my uncle just actually are racist anti-semites, making ‘off color jokes’ about Jews being greedy and money obsessed at fucking family gatherings literally in the faces of my cousins and their dad.
Oh well I guess?
Politics evolves to become defined by the hypocrises and contradictions no one is capable of having a rational discussion about.
Meanwhile, I’ve been anti Zionist my whole life, and every single actual Israeli I’ve ever met has been a racist, anti-Islamic Zionist… and when I point this out, almost every white liberal or self described lefty has called me an antisemite.
The problem is that there is a fine line between stating your observations of a few people and racism.
I’d guess that you haven’t met many actual Israelis…… certainly not enough to be a statistically significant sample. If that’s the case then assuming that your observations apply to the whole population becomes racism.
The problem is that there is a fine line between stating your observations of a few people and racism.
Understanding that the majority of Israelis are fascist and support genocide does not make you rascist.
What you are doing is conflating zionism with Judaism, no different to the Israeli state and their propaganda. Believing that the Israeli government IS judaism is about as rascist as you can get. It’s no different than claiming Iran or the Taliban IS Islam/Arabs, which is unironically what Christian naturalists/racists/fascists believe.
Hey there, bingo, you managed to make roughly the same point as I did but without making it personal, lol.
As a kind of … lol, further, roughly relevant personal example:
My door dash driver the other day was a shorter woman, olive complexion, spoke with a bit of an accent, and had a head covering over her head ao that you couldn’t see her hair, but could see her whole face, along with something sort of resembling a shawl, but quite bright and colorful.
I thanked her for the food, and then, a bit awkardly said… ‘I only know how to ‘thank you’ in Arabic, shyu-ka-ren (sp lol), but I … believe you are probably Persian, how would I say ‘thank you’ in Persian?’
She smiled and was a bit confused: ‘How did you know I am Persian, and not Arab?’
‘Ah, I don’t know the proper names of the different styles of head coverings, but I have seen many pictures, and I think yours is more common in Persia, they tend to be different in Arab countries.’
‘Ah, that’s right! That is how you knew!’ smiled again. ‘Yes, in Arabic it is shyu-ka-ren, in Persian it is tash-ah-kor!’
I then struggle to pronounce it a few times until getting it right, while also semi-short circuiting, reverting back to my ‘Karate training’ and mixing in semi-formal Japanese bows.
… Given where I currently live, I can almost statistically guarantee she’d never encountered a white person she’s delivered DoorDash to here, who even bothered to attempt to tell the difference between an Arab and a Persian, muchless for the purpose of trying to properly thank her in her own language.
All that to say: It is entirely possible to be humble, and attempt to ‘profile’ people… to achieve something pleasant, good, that spreads a smile.
Awkward? Probably.
Racist? … No, more likely quite close to the opposite.
I have not met very many Israelis, that is true…
But the ones that I have met expressed very overtly racist positions that were logically inconsistent in any other scenario: special pleading all the way.
I wasn’t, at the time, back around a decade ago now, telling my white liberal friends ‘all Israelis are racist because I met a few’.
I was telling them ‘this is what this one particular guy said, this is what that other particular guy said, if you applied that same logic you could justify the US extermination of Native Americans, this is concerning to me.’
You are here doing the thing my former friends did: You are assuming I did and said things I did not do nor say, and are pearl clutching… because you’ve head canon’d in your own missing context and additional details.
Notably none of my former white liberal friends bothered to ever ask me about having grown with fairly frequently interacting with… you know, my cousins… and me and them getting along with them well, me learning how to make a latke, me being respectful at hannukah despite me being raised Protestant, me being excited to learn the dradel dradel dradel song as a kid, watching fiddler on the roof together and me liking the songs so much I learned how to sing some of them, and then my actually anti semitic dad telling me to cut that shit out in his house, etc.
Nah they just assumed I was an anti-semite, because they and their families were even more lily white than me and mine, and were projecting their own fears of being viewed as anti-semitic onto me.
It is entirely possible for me to say ‘every Israeli I’ve met has been racist’, that be a true statement, while I can also simultaneously believe that not all Israelis are racist, statistically or by definition… because I am aware of the difference between an anecdote and a statistically valid survey.
…
But did you read the entire article that is this post?
82% of the Israeli public support, at bare minimum, ethnically cleansing all of Gaza.
Thats 4 out of 5.
That is your statistically valid sample.
Turns out my anecdotal experience was not atypical.
…
I’ve only met a few Japanese (as in, born and raised in Japan and ethnically Japanese) people in my life, and they’ve all been skilled martial artists.
This just is true.
Because I met them via participating in Karate for over a decade.
… Does this mean I think all Japanese people are highly skilled martial artists?
No.
Not unless you read that into what I said, despite me not actually saying that, because you head canon’d your own context into the first statement.
But the ones that I have met expressed very overtly racist positions that were logically inconsistent in any other scenario: special pleading all the way.
I wasn’t, at the time, back around a decade ago now, telling my white liberal friends ‘all Israelis are racist because I met a few’.
I’m not saying that you were being racist. I’m saying that it’s very easy to come across as racist when pointing out things that you don’t like about a few people off the same race.
You are here doing the thing my former friends did: You are assuming I did and said things I did not do nor say, and are pearl clutching… because you’ve head canon’d in your own missing context and additional details.
I’m doing no such thing. I wasn’t judging you for your observations and I made no statement about whether I thought you were racist or not because I don’t have the information required to suggest that you are.
But did you read the entire article that is this post?
No, I didn’t need to because I was only making the comment that it’s very easy to be seen as racist when you talk about a race of people.
No, I didn’t need to because I was only making the comment that it’s very easy to be seen as racist when you talk about a race of people.
Ah, guess we better just not talk at all about race then and all just do ‘im colorblind, i intentionally ignore systemic racial injustices and judge everyone by my own racially priveleged standards’.
Fuck off.
Context matters, the context of this post and the comments that follow from it matter, you just randomly popping in to ‘agnostically’ critique a single comment, on its own, without context, when the entire point of said comment is that proper context and nuance matter is an insultingly facile and unproductive thing to do, its the insecure, passive-aggressive liberal’s version of ‘just asking questions’ / ‘lets say, hypothetically… (nonsenical rhetorical non sequitir).’
Is… is this what you do, just scan random comments and remove all context and then tell people that with all the context removed this could sound bad?
You reply to specific, detailed posts and then say oh actually I was just commenting generally, it just happened to be on this specific comment for no particular reason?
Go back to twitter or bluesky to clutch your pearls, fuck off with your disingenuous, shit-disturber bullshit.
‘nogooduser’ indeed, almost like an intentional joke name a dedicated contrarian troll would use.
Fuck off.
I’m sorry that I offended you. I was genuinely trying to be helpful in pointing out how what you said could be misconstrued.
I think it’s potentially true that Hamas fucks with aid and blames it on the IDF for public support. I don’t know if they do, but it’d be smart. Israel is absolutely fucking with aid, guaranteed. They’re murdering civilians, and damn near no one seems to give a shit. It’s sad how few people seem to pay attention or care about the obvious signs of genocide. Not just the Palestinian genocide, the Rwandan, Bosnian, Cambodian genocides as well.
I think it’s potentially true that Hamas fucks with aid and blames it on the IDF
To what possible end? How does anyone in the Palestinian government benefit from their genocide?
I don’t really think they do that, but I’d personally find it smart. Limit the amount of aid sent so that people are suffering and desperate. Offer a solution, win public opinion. Again, I don’t really think they do that. I think that Israel’s doing all of that.
Offer a solution, win public opinion.
You can’t do that kind of politics in the middle of a genocide.
The same possible end of israelis killing their prime minister or the current prime undermining peace efforts - power. Hamas are a bunch of lunatics, like Mileikowsky an his ilk.
Not just the Palestinian genocide, the Rwandan, Bosnian, Cambodian genocides as well.
They’re not worthy victims.
Wait till Greta gets blown to pieces, then there’ll be national mourning all over the place… then it’s back to normal after a few days.
This “issue” has unfortunately been in Israeli controlled media for much longer than a year. They’ve been indoctrined to hate Palestine since the forming of israel
Also, part 2:
Israelis tend to get really fucking triggered when you tell them about:
Israel was literally founded by terrorists who bombed and shot civillians in terror bombings… as in, they explicitly targetted civillians for the chaos factor… and they wrote about this in their own journals and memoirs and then went on to lead the government.
The entire USS Liberty incident, which was almost certainly Israel trying to false flag blow up an American ship during the 6 day war and blame it on the Egyptians, to get the US directly involved.
The Apollo Affair, wherein Israeli sympathizers/spies literally stole US nuclear fissile material from the US to aide in the production of their nuclear weapons (which basically every Western government officially, and society generally, denied they even had nukes untill about a year to 6 months ago).
The Samson Doctrine, Israel’s take on nuclear detterance… is more or less this:
If Israel feels like it is going to be nuked or completely invaded, they will nuke major cities in all countries within one to two thousand miles, ally, enemy, neutral, who cares, the logic is to throw as big of a shit fit as possible and declare that if they can’t have Israel, no one can have anything, and they’ll do all that themselves.
And finally, if you just tell them that Hasbara is a real thing that obviously exists and promotes publically that it will pay anyone who will draft themselves into being an online propaganda troll for Israel.
… Conversely, if anybody were to tell me about all the awful shit the US has done and is doing, I have a functioning moral compass and brain and can say, yep, that shit is/was fucking awful, unnaceptable, and in my ideal world, all those responsible would be in jail or tried as war criminals, in the ICJ for crimes against humanity, Luigi’d, etc.
They see us Palestinians so poorly, that they’d straight up rather KILL THEMSELVES than be captured.
When that story broke, or video footage emerged of … around a year ago now…
Of a ‘hostage rescue mission’… involving a fucking Merkava point blank firing a main cannon round into the building they believed the hostages and their captors were in, that was also in a large multi family apartment building, with tons of other civillians inside…
I fucking lost it.
Even from the perspective of US Rules of Engagement in Iraq War 2, which was… lets say highly insufficient at prioritizing noncombatant safety, at best…
That is fucking godamned insane nonsense. If a US tank crew had accidentally put a tank round into a densely occupied civillian apartment building, they would have been fucking court matrialled, or it would have been covered up and a decent scandal when it leaked out later.
To do this intentionally? In a hostage rescue mission? And every pro-Israel person either ignores it or is totally fine with it?
Just fucking insane, like parody super hero ‘oops, Homelander was gonna save everyone but he got angry or sneezed and lasered the airplane pilots’ fucking insane.
When that helicopter gun cam vid of blowing away suspected insurgents first aired in 04 on ABC, it caused a national debate.
In Israel, the last year or so, we get a video like that every other day, and then people stitch themselves into it making demeaning jokes.
Oh I know, its just been dialed up to fucking insane levels lately.
Oh yeah it’s gone wild, but at least that brings the issue up for people who are willing to be informed and change their view point on the matter (as rare as that may be these days).
It’s called zionism.
As a Native American my heart goes out to all Palestinians effected by these ignorant Zionist we must be better than this we can be better than this.
My understanding is that Israeli TV is hugely responsible for making this mainstream. Just like in Rwanda where radio played a huge role in the genocide.
It’s almost as if genocide scholars have been warning about a series of patterns over the last couple of years…
The genocidal ideology of zionism is their hegemonic narrative. It’s much bigger than just TV. It’s also the schools, politicians, cops/prisons, compulsory terrorism, etc. Genocide is the basis of their entire “society”.
I don’t think that’s fair, they do absolutely teach Zionism from a young age, but it’s not specifically genocide. Watched an interesting documentary recently about Jews in America and how they’re raised, it’s basically once you get pushed into the IDF THEN the genocide love starts being actively spread.
they do absolutely teach Zionism from a young age,
once you get pushed into the IDF THEN the genocide love starts being actively spread.
So they learn to hate from a young age, reinforced by mandatory military service (for both genders, they’re very egalitarian)… and then they grow up to accept genocide… but they’re not taught to be genocidal in school so it’s ok… got it.
Lmfao straw man, when did I once say that it was OK?
Serious question, how much of this has to do with hamas not releasing the hostages. I would imagine they’d be hearing and talking bout getting their people back constantly.
It’s hard to say. With or without hostages, October 7 was extremely traumatic; and came in the context of a population already primed to be suspicious of Palestinians. In particular, the West Bank ethnic cleansing was already well underway with the tacit support of the general population; as although for most people that support was more about apathy than proactive support. Looking at how the US lost its shit for decades after 9/11, it is clear that hostages are not necessary for that to happen. Israel has also to deal with follow up attacks, which has a way of keeping trauma fresh.
Regarding the role of the hostages in this case, the first thing to acknowledge is that the actual response by Israel has not prioritized the hostages. Critical members of Israel’s current governing coalition have threatened to leave over prior attempts at a hostage deal. This has lead a serious rift developing between the current government and many of the hostage families.
However, from a propaganda side, the hostages have been a major assesset to the current government (both internationally and domestically). Most people are simply not that engaged in politics. We have heard repeatedly from Israeli military leadership that there are no achievat military goals left in Gaza. However, it is hard for that message to break through when the other side can point to the hostages and say “freeing those people is our goal”. Nevermind the fact that everyone paying attention knows that military action is not an effective tool of hostage release [0] and almost all of the freed hostages have been freed as a result of diplomacy.
[0] It can be useful for leverage in negotiations; but Israel is well past the point needed for that.
Hamas should free the hostages. Frankly, they should have never taken non-combatant hostages in the first place. That was absolutely a crime.
Most of October 7 was a crime, even without the hostages. Taking the hostages was itself a crime, and continuing to hold them continues to be a crime.
The question of what Hamas “should” do is more complicated. Clearly following international law is not a priority for them, so that justification goes out the window.
In terms of actually advancing their interests, I don’t see much benefit to them. Their biggest asset in Israeli domestic politics are the hostages. The political pressure in Israel to free them is real, and the decision makers all know that a deal is the only way to meet that. Further, a not insignificant portion of the population oppose the war in it’s current form specifically because of the hostages. The only wins Hamas has gotten has been through hostage negotiations.
In exchange for giving all of that up, Hamas gets a slight benefit in the PR war. It is a very hard sell to say that is a good trade.
If you want Hamas to free the hostages, you need to get to a point where “Hamas should free the hostages” is true from the perspective of Hamas. Then, you can work on convincing them it is true. The good news is that Hamas is very amenable to the idea that releasing hostages is in their interest. That is the entire reason you take hostages: to get some benefit by releasing them.
I am using “should” in a moral sense, according to my own moral compass. I mean that according to my own morality they “should do the right thing”. Nothing beyond that.
That said, I agree with your analysis entirely.
Netanyahu want to continue the genocide even after hostages are released . Don’t tell the oppressed what to do when the west been ignoring 57 years of occupation and dozens of atrocities like 7 of October through history .
You should ask for Israel to end occupation, allow a one or two state solution then bring people responsible of atrocities on both side
Go through my comment history buddy, you’re preaching to the choir. The fact that the Israeli apartheid regime is committing genocide is one thing. The fact that Hamas should not have taken non-combatant hostages is another. And sorry but no, I refuse to identify Hamas with “the oppressed”. They are fanatics propped up by slave-owners in the Gulf and politically useful idiots of the Israeili apartheid regime.
You are an idealist ignoring history and human psychology .It would be cool if there was a resistance group that do not target any civilians and do not get money from shady group. This was never the case. I can got in history and see ton of massacre commited by the oppressed due to oppresion. Like nana sahib in india promising safety to a bunch of british civilians amd soldier and ending up massacring them.
Palestinians won’t stay silence and keep hearing the useless both commited attrocities bs , waiting arabs and west countries to help which they will never do.
I don’t support hamas, i support their actions against the idf terrorists only
Talking about a useful idiot, that’s the palestinian autority collaborating with israel while israel arm and protect violent terrorists settlers and expanding settlements
You are so hardcore and knowledgeable of human history and psychology. So hardcore. Yea.
Look buddy. The world fucking sucks, right? People do horrible things. People are locked into doing horrible things. People are desperate, and brutalized and traumatized and beaten down. You can look at that and say, yea that’s how it is.
Or you can look at it and say We Should Do Better. You call that idealism? Good. In a world where reality is becoming more brutal by the hour, maybe a little idealism is what exactly we need.
Given the thousands of Palestinians taken hostage by Israel both before and after Oct 7, the vast majority of which are non-combatants and are held in nightmarish conditions. How else would Hamas negotiate for their release except via a hostage exchange? Are they supposed to just give up the only bargaining chip they have?
I don’t appreciate these “what else should they do” questions. I’ve been debating pro-zionist trolls for two years now and I no longer accept even their premise. I’m not going to turn around and apply it to Hamas.
I think holding hostages for the sake of getting your own people back from a genocidal ethnostate is maybe a little more justifiable then Zionist apologia for genocide. But maybe that’s just me.
If we are talking about combatants, sure. I would not flinch a moment. But civilians? Kids? Nah bro, don’t go there.
Since the steps for Palestinian genocide started before Oct 7, and the IDF has been okay with killing their own hostages in high-yield strikes, not likely.
Considering they’re carpet-bombing the place it’ll be interesting to know if there any hostages left… of course they’ll blame hamas.
Shocking. Israel has successfully dehumanized the entire Palestinian population.
This was over a year ago:
“Israeli government accounts on the social media site X have been posting a video with a quote from a freed hostage, in which she says that “there are no innocent civilians” in Gaza.”
This just in: The country that has been doing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians for 77 years is still okay with doing ethnic cleansing.
Absolutely disgusting. Our common ancestors are rolling over in their graves at their inhumanity.
Say it loud for those in the back, it’s not just the leaders.
I don’t judge the individual, but I sure as hell judge them as a group, who keep voting for people who are doing genocide.
Here’s the part where some numbnuts will stop to explain, “Not all Jews!” Yeah. We get that. But the Jewish state of Israel, which was founded as a safe haven for Jews, is genocidal as fuck. And who makes up 75% of the population of Israel? Could it be… Jews? Where do 50% of the Jews on the planet reside? Could it be Israel?
And for stating a few unarguable facts, I expect a ban. Maybe I could very sheepishly, on the down-low, suggest that only a radical, very tiny number of Jews are, perhaps, maybe partly, just a bit, guilty of genocide, or at least, are collaborators and supporters?
FFS, no one has the balls to say out loud, “Not a good look guys.” <-anti-Semitism
Sincerely:
GenXer who had always supported Israel and had less than zero beef with Jews.
Yeah, I think it’s less being Jewish and more that they are settlers. They are acting just like how Canadians, Australians and Afrikaners acted against the local indigenous population.
Anything that reminds them that they don’t belong to this land (in their assessment and minds, land does not belong to anyone) they hate that. Mostly the people who were there before them.
It’s not Jewishness, it’s just Assholeishness.
Israel is absolutely being genocidal here, but it has nothing to do with them being Jews. They want the land, full stop. They believe they are more entitled to the land than anyone else, full stop.
The fact that they are Jewish is really immaterial and hating “the Jews” because of what Israel is doing is a lot like, I dunno, hating white people because of the various White Supremacist groups.
You have a supremacist government taking genocidal actions, any supremacist government would do the same, it doesn’t matter what the heritage is.
And you have a population that largely supports the actions of the government.
It’s not the government just doing what it pleases, it’s doing what its population wants it to do.
Correct, but being Jewish isn’t a factor in their thinking.
I’m not disagreeing with you, but as my ex used to comment (she’s Jewish and went to private Jewish school) their religion is very clear in explaining they are the chosen children of God.
Off the bat they are indoctrinated that they are better than all of us.
All I know is my children are less safe in the world because of what the state of Israel is doing and that disgusts me.
Every religion is convinced they are the chosen children of God. :)
Oooh not like them. With them it’s clearly defined in the Torah multiple times. G-d Himself tells them they are His children.
The vast majority of Israeli Jews and a significant number (not sure if a majority) of diaspora Jews are actively guilty of perpetuating and aiding Israel’s genocide and occupation(s). That’s just facts and won’t get you banned (at least not from Lemmy). However, generalizing that to the significant fraction of Jews who aren’t party to these crimes or are opposing them is antisemitism and will rightly get you banned. There’s nothing complicated about this.
Sources ? The biggest foreign community that support the fascists in Israel are evangelist.
On the other side, their is a lot of Jewish organization that support Palestine
So it’s a fascist state, which include a support of it’s population through nationalism. It doesn’t change anything that this nationalism is based on a religion, regional or cultural identity. It’s work the same.
Speaking about all the population is cutting ourselves from the ally we have in the 15%. We couldn’t say “it’s over, we couldn’t do anything for those left”; we are the 15% in our own imperialist state. And if you think that this is a different situation, there were German resistance during WW2 … and they almost kill hitler.
Even if you disagree, why speaking about Jewish people and not just Israeli people ? You just insulting every Jews that choose do not live in Israel. A choice you didn’t make.
For years Israel has been running around the world, waving their foes statements about “pushing Israel into the sea” as a call to arms against atrocity.
And now here they are, committing that very atrocity. But genocide seems inevitable when your stated goal is to be an ethnostate.
Wow, highlighting the fact they’re a genocidal theocratic ethnostate without highlighting the good things.
Like how they invented tomatoes hummus and fizzy water, or how good they are at exterminating the brutes!
Clearly just an antisemite. There’s no behavior the jewish people could do that would be good enough for you, short of completely stopping the genocide¹, and abandoning their entire 5000 year old culture, which is suspiciously close to lemkin’s original definition of genocide. Stopping the genocide is genocide. You people just cant stop wanting to genocide jews, can you? Antisemites make me sick.
¹which the hamas people are doing to themselves actually. Tge idf has never been outside the city of jerusalem, and actually mostly just makes music videos, check them out on social media!
They’ve literally been doing this shit since they pushed the Palestinians out of the way almost eighty fucking years ago. Of course the population is okay with it.
It’d be more surprising if the ingroup of an established ethnostate weren’t hitlerites.
I noticed on LinkedIn that a ton of my former colleagues from Israel are now in the US. I think shifting demographics as progressives leave are a bigger part of the story than the shifting opinions these stories have been about.
The wider truth is that anyone who’s remotely sane or empathetic is driven out of the zio regime. I have a friend who grew up under the regime and resisted the mandatory terrorism. He was put in prison, then he was harassed and threatened with death until he fled to USA. This dude is an exceptionally great person and for that reason he was violently forced out.
So whom does that leave over there? Only the most genocidal wackos. Thus, this completely unsurprising poll.
Also work the other way around, Jewish people from around the world that don’t accept the genocide being committed on their name are not going to move to Israel, while tha ones that are OK and support it are more likely to move in and participate directly.
Yeah exactly. I was just thinking my kid will probably never see it because I can’t imagine visiting ever again.
Holocaust in actio
Anyone surprised? Nasi state governed by nazis, who were elected by nazis thinking they are more than others. Fuck israel.
If you know anything about the genocidal ideology of zionism, this should be absolutely no surprise. It’s always been like this. Haven’t people watched any interviews with zios? Don’t y’all know any zios? These people are brainwashed racists at best.
I know a Palestinian talking to Israelis on omegle . Most of them are so disgusting and racists.
This new documentary serie is cool https://youtu.be/AEiL_5h14pY
