Exactly. People need to take in the full context. Here is the full chapter, with the quote in the final paragraph, which… Makes the quote even worse?
Instructions on Worship
2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.
8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
There is actually a lot of historical context missing and — like most things Biblical — this has been terribly mistranslated and deeply abused and twisted by patriarchal leaders to suit their own political ambitions.
Ephesus was home to the cult of Artemis/Diana, and the Temple of Artemis which was one of the Seven Wonders of the ancient world. The cult was matriarchal, Artemis being the goddess of girls and fertility, natural forces and archery, among other things. Her priestesses spoke with the authority and voice of their goddess, who was strong, fierce, and independent and the culture developed around this for hundreds of years.
The entire letter is to a specific group of people regarding specific cultural conflicts. What the letter is saying is that women who are converting must not be allowed use their sex as an excuse to suppress or dominate male teachers. Instead, they need to learn this new religion respectfully from the existing teachers, who are men, rather than taking over by force as the culture would have historically promoted as their Ephesian/Artemisian birthright. Flaunting wealth and social status is also frowned upon. And while the sexist “women made the mistake” line is there and is intentional, the call back to being “saved by childbearing” is meant to extend a familiar bridge for Artemis cultists. If it’s not immediately obvious why, then do you remember what Artemis was goddess of?
It’s a real shame that pretty much no place bothers with putting historical context to the bible when teaching about it. Would’ve been great if christian churches did that
That’s a historical text interpretation of the Bible, which is legit to me. However I’d say only a minority of practicing Christians regard it that way. With the rest, you have more fundamentalist views of the Bible as the literal word of God and the flexible view of it as metaogorical teachings inspired by God. Therefore these views treat the Bible specifically as authoritative, timeless, and divine, elevating it above a mere human document and transcendent of historical context. Timothy 3:17 seems to reflect the common idea that “the Bible is the only book you need”.
I do agree that one can make a historical argument for an interpretation of scripture, and maybe even do so in a way that reifies one’s personal relationship with God. However it doesn’t engage with the Bible the way most Christians do and therefore is not likely to be all that persuasive.
Religion - and all dogmatism - exists solely as a tool for the powerful to subjugate and oppress others. This has been the case for all of recorded human history. Christianity is no exception.
I won’t take a fantastical mythological approach to any ancient document, even if that’s what modern acolytes are doing. I won’t pretend to care about their fan fiction, but I will casually correct factual mistakes and move on. Why? Because it’s therapeutic. I was raised in an abusive evangelical home, and besides that abuse, because my existence was “sinful”, the insistence on reading “The Bible” and learning that it doesn’t actually say any of the things I was told it did was formative. The people who demanded I read it clearly hadn’t themselves, and never dug deeper than the english words — which they insisted were “God-inspired.” Yes, the english ones. Which english ones? All of them. And whatever you wanted to extrapolate from them, which meant all your hate and torture and mental, physical, and emotional abuse were also the literal words of god. Fuck that. Fuck those people.
You are right that nothing can change a cultists mind. They are in a cult of millions and millions. Their own holy book disagrees with all their dogmas, their speech, their actions, their teachings, but pointing it out will never change their minds. I’ll do it, anyway, because I need to. Liars should be exposed, even the liars themselves won’t recant.
Ther original is in Greek. There is no mistranslation.
Paul says, “I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet.” If it was about heretics, it would have said so. If it was about Timothy’s church only, he would have said so.
Paul said “I” don’t permit it. He didn’t say “You” shouldn’t permit it. That means the Christian church, even without the cult of Artemis, should not permit women to teach or have authority over men.
Paul wrote to the various movements about their unique challenges and how they should approach them. The Koine is dripping with meaning that is not easily translated to English.
This is how most English speakers - who have no knowledge or experience with the cultures being written about or the Koine language they were written in - read their rubbish translations. This is also clearly you.
Men need to be praying all the time, and when they pray they need to raise their hands up and do it without fuss. I want the women to cover themselves up, not wearing jewelry or caring for themselves, but serving on others, which is what God wants. Women need to shut up and do what they’re told. I will not tolerate a woman being a teacher or having any authority over a man, she must shut the hell up, because God created Adam first. Eve came second.
But language is funny, because it’s meant to convey meaning through ideas, not approximations of words with zero thought to origin or target context. Because I can read Koine and history is one of my 'tisms, this is what it actually SAYS.
Whenever the men lift up their hands to address God, I want their hands to be clean, not soiled with resentment or quarrel.
In the same way, women need to present themselves reasonably - with dignity and self-discipline. Not with extravagant hairstyles, golden jewelry, expensive pearls, or decadent clothes, but in alignment with the values of a woman who claims to serve God: by setting a good example in how they live and behave. Let them learn, but they must be calm and composed students. I will not give my permission for a woman to seize control of teaching from a man. They must conduct themselves peacefully. Remember the story of Adam and Eve. Adam, who came first, was not deceived, but Eve, who came later, was tricked into doing wrong.
This builds directly on a couple paragraphs earlier, which laments the destabilizing influence of Ephesus’ pagan culture on the Christian movement there. Men were bitter and women were powerful and ambitious, and people who had no idea what they were talking about were trying to seize positions of authority in this new Christian sect. They needed to learn, first. The integrity of the teaching had to be maintained.
What does that say? Well, resist the urge to assume that all self-important blowhards are always men and remember what I said about Ephesus being the seat of the matriarchal Artemis cult.
The purpose of our mission is love - love from a pure heart, a sense of integrity, and genuine commitment.
But some of you have lost sight of this mission and wandered off to blow self-important wind, holding ambitions to be esteemed teachers. But despite their projected confidence they have no idea what they are talking about.
Whenever the men lift up their hands to address God, I want their hands to be clean, not soiled with resentment or quarrel. In the same way, women need to present themselves reasonably - with dignity and self-discipline. Not with extravagant hairstyles, golden jewelry, expensive pearls, or decadent clothes, but in alignment with the values of a woman who claims to serve God: by setting a good example in how they live and behave. Let them learn, but they must be calm and composed students. I will not give my permission for a woman to seize control of teaching from a man. They must conduct themselves peacefully. Remember the story of Adam and Eve. Adam, who came first, was not deceived, but Eve, who came later, was tricked into doing wrong.
You believe this is the correct translation yet it doesn’t change the problem at all.
“women need to present themselves reasonably - with dignity and self-discipline. Not with extravagant hairstyles, golden jewelry, expensive pearls, or decadent clothes, but in alignment with the values of a woman who claims to serve God:”
Where is the admonishment that men should do the same?
remember what I said about Ephesus being the seat of the matriarchal Artemis cult.
" I will not give my permission for a woman to seize control of teaching from a man.
Even if the problem is that he is talking about the Cult of Artemis, it cannot be an admonishment that ONLY WOMEN do not have permission. There is no mention that men or women shouldn’t follow pagan religions. It is only an admonishment against women. As such there is no textual support that this was anti pagan rhetoric.
Again Paul says that he doesn’t support women to seize control of teaching. It therefore cannot be about the cult of Artemis.
Where is the admonishment that men should do the same?
Ephesus is not a patriarchal society. You are still assuming a culture and context that is equivalent to your own modern experience. Women are a privileged class in 200 CE Ephesus, and had been for hundreds of years. Like all privileged classes in all of human history, they are the group that are most likely to try to seize authority for themselves. Parading ostentatious wealth in the form of fancy hair, jewelry, and expensive clothes was not a trait of Ephesian men, but Ephesian women.
Also “a woman” and “a man” does not mean “every woman” or “every man”, or even “any woman” or “any man.” It is a targeted reference to the specific issue that Timothy was dealing with in Ephesus… Artemis adherents trying to take control of the fledgling christian cult, even though they don’t know the first thing about them or their doctrine. The Koine offers a lot of clear meaning and intent that is very difficult to convey in either English or terms that are understandable to a modern person with no historical frame of reference.
What Paul is saying is “If women want to teach, they first need to learn. If they want to learn, they need to stop flaunting their wealth, stop behaving like entitled jerks, and start treating our teachers — who are men — with respect, instead of trying to usurp their positions. We aren’t doing this for clout, but to improve everyone’s lives. Those who haven’t learned the rules are going to make terrible mistakes.”
Outside of priestesses, it was a patriarchal society. Greece had priestesses too. The existence of a priestess doesn’t make a patriarchal society.
Prohibitions against dressing fancy for women and only women has nothing to do with combatting paganism. Men participated in the cult of Artemis yet Paul said nothing about restricting men. Paul does not mention paganism nor heresy.
Paul did not make those proscription just for Timothy. He said “I”. Your version did not show any mistranslation.
Corinthians also says woman should not speak in church in so it cannot be a special case only for Timothy.
Where is the admonishment that men should do the same?
What Paul is saying is “If women want to teach, they first need to learn. If they want to learn, they need to stop flaunting their wealth, stop behaving like entitled jerks, and start treating our teachers — who are men — with respect, instead of trying to usurp their positions. We aren’t doing this for clout, but to improve everyone’s lives. Those who haven’t learned the rules are going to make terrible mistakes.”
You just restarted the blatant sexism that everyone complains about.
Maybe changing the context will help you see the problem:
What Paul is saying is "If Blacks want to teach, they first need to learn. If they want to learn, they need to stop flaunting their wealth, stop behaving like entitled jerks, and start treating our teachers — who are White — with respect, instead of trying to usurp their positions.
Is that racist? If you can see the racism, then read your statement again and see the sexism that you defend.
Maybe changing the context will help you see the problem:
You are doing the libertarian thing and completely and repeatedly ignoring context. Do you also try to argue “woke DEI is the real racism?”
then read your statement again and see the sexism that you defend.
What on earth makes you think I am defending sexism? I am pointing out that sexists deliberately misinterpret this letter — exactly as you are doing — to subjugate women in the here and now, while that is in no way what this letter is about. If you read some of my other comments you will know that I am a militant atheist but I get really pissed when people intentionally misuse these documents as a weapon against others, including myself.
Again “women” is NOT universal in this context. It is “ambitious, entitled, and wealthy Artimisian women of Ephesus”. It is very specific, not universal. I am not sure how to make this more clear since you continue to dismiss that objective fact in favor of a sexist, wildly fallacious modern xtian re-interpretation.
Maybe we have our wires crossed. I am not trying to perform apologetics, but correcting the record for a historical document that academics understand very well, but is nevertheless a holy weapon for ambitious, immoral, political tyrants because people are stupid, ignorant, and uneducated all the things this letter is specifically admonishing against.
Exactly. People need to take in the full context. Here is the full chapter, with the quote in the final paragraph, which… Makes the quote even worse?
Instructions on Worship
2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.
8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
There is actually a lot of historical context missing and — like most things Biblical — this has been terribly mistranslated and deeply abused and twisted by patriarchal leaders to suit their own political ambitions.
Ephesus was home to the cult of Artemis/Diana, and the Temple of Artemis which was one of the Seven Wonders of the ancient world. The cult was matriarchal, Artemis being the goddess of girls and fertility, natural forces and archery, among other things. Her priestesses spoke with the authority and voice of their goddess, who was strong, fierce, and independent and the culture developed around this for hundreds of years.
The entire letter is to a specific group of people regarding specific cultural conflicts. What the letter is saying is that women who are converting must not be allowed use their sex as an excuse to suppress or dominate male teachers. Instead, they need to learn this new religion respectfully from the existing teachers, who are men, rather than taking over by force as the culture would have historically promoted as their Ephesian/Artemisian birthright. Flaunting wealth and social status is also frowned upon. And while the sexist “women made the mistake” line is there and is intentional, the call back to being “saved by childbearing” is meant to extend a familiar bridge for Artemis cultists. If it’s not immediately obvious why, then do you remember what Artemis was goddess of?
It’s a real shame that pretty much no place bothers with putting historical context to the bible when teaching about it. Would’ve been great if christian churches did that
That’s a historical text interpretation of the Bible, which is legit to me. However I’d say only a minority of practicing Christians regard it that way. With the rest, you have more fundamentalist views of the Bible as the literal word of God and the flexible view of it as metaogorical teachings inspired by God. Therefore these views treat the Bible specifically as authoritative, timeless, and divine, elevating it above a mere human document and transcendent of historical context. Timothy 3:17 seems to reflect the common idea that “the Bible is the only book you need”.
I do agree that one can make a historical argument for an interpretation of scripture, and maybe even do so in a way that reifies one’s personal relationship with God. However it doesn’t engage with the Bible the way most Christians do and therefore is not likely to be all that persuasive.
I completely agree.
Religion - and all dogmatism - exists solely as a tool for the powerful to subjugate and oppress others. This has been the case for all of recorded human history. Christianity is no exception.
I won’t take a fantastical mythological approach to any ancient document, even if that’s what modern acolytes are doing. I won’t pretend to care about their fan fiction, but I will casually correct factual mistakes and move on. Why? Because it’s therapeutic. I was raised in an abusive evangelical home, and besides that abuse, because my existence was “sinful”, the insistence on reading “The Bible” and learning that it doesn’t actually say any of the things I was told it did was formative. The people who demanded I read it clearly hadn’t themselves, and never dug deeper than the english words — which they insisted were “God-inspired.” Yes, the english ones. Which english ones? All of them. And whatever you wanted to extrapolate from them, which meant all your hate and torture and mental, physical, and emotional abuse were also the literal words of god. Fuck that. Fuck those people.
You are right that nothing can change a cultists mind. They are in a cult of millions and millions. Their own holy book disagrees with all their dogmas, their speech, their actions, their teachings, but pointing it out will never change their minds. I’ll do it, anyway, because I need to. Liars should be exposed, even the liars themselves won’t recant.
excellent, someone who knows :-)
Ther original is in Greek. There is no mistranslation.
Paul says, “I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet.” If it was about heretics, it would have said so. If it was about Timothy’s church only, he would have said so.
Paul said “I” don’t permit it. He didn’t say “You” shouldn’t permit it. That means the Christian church, even without the cult of Artemis, should not permit women to teach or have authority over men.
This is the original Koine per the NA28 for 1 Timothy.
Paul wrote to the various movements about their unique challenges and how they should approach them. The Koine is dripping with meaning that is not easily translated to English.
This is how most English speakers - who have no knowledge or experience with the cultures being written about or the Koine language they were written in - read their rubbish translations. This is also clearly you.
But language is funny, because it’s meant to convey meaning through ideas, not approximations of words with zero thought to origin or target context. Because I can read Koine and history is one of my 'tisms, this is what it actually SAYS.
This builds directly on a couple paragraphs earlier, which laments the destabilizing influence of Ephesus’ pagan culture on the Christian movement there. Men were bitter and women were powerful and ambitious, and people who had no idea what they were talking about were trying to seize positions of authority in this new Christian sect. They needed to learn, first. The integrity of the teaching had to be maintained.
What does that say? Well, resist the urge to assume that all self-important blowhards are always men and remember what I said about Ephesus being the seat of the matriarchal Artemis cult.
Interesting. That sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
You believe this is the correct translation yet it doesn’t change the problem at all.
“women need to present themselves reasonably - with dignity and self-discipline. Not with extravagant hairstyles, golden jewelry, expensive pearls, or decadent clothes, but in alignment with the values of a woman who claims to serve God:”
Where is the admonishment that men should do the same?
" I will not give my permission for a woman to seize control of teaching from a man.
Even if the problem is that he is talking about the Cult of Artemis, it cannot be an admonishment that ONLY WOMEN do not have permission. There is no mention that men or women shouldn’t follow pagan religions. It is only an admonishment against women. As such there is no textual support that this was anti pagan rhetoric.
Again Paul says that he doesn’t support women to seize control of teaching. It therefore cannot be about the cult of Artemis.
Ephesus is not a patriarchal society. You are still assuming a culture and context that is equivalent to your own modern experience. Women are a privileged class in 200 CE Ephesus, and had been for hundreds of years. Like all privileged classes in all of human history, they are the group that are most likely to try to seize authority for themselves. Parading ostentatious wealth in the form of fancy hair, jewelry, and expensive clothes was not a trait of Ephesian men, but Ephesian women.
Also “a woman” and “a man” does not mean “every woman” or “every man”, or even “any woman” or “any man.” It is a targeted reference to the specific issue that Timothy was dealing with in Ephesus… Artemis adherents trying to take control of the fledgling christian cult, even though they don’t know the first thing about them or their doctrine. The Koine offers a lot of clear meaning and intent that is very difficult to convey in either English or terms that are understandable to a modern person with no historical frame of reference.
What Paul is saying is “If women want to teach, they first need to learn. If they want to learn, they need to stop flaunting their wealth, stop behaving like entitled jerks, and start treating our teachers — who are men — with respect, instead of trying to usurp their positions. We aren’t doing this for clout, but to improve everyone’s lives. Those who haven’t learned the rules are going to make terrible mistakes.”
Outside of priestesses, it was a patriarchal society. Greece had priestesses too. The existence of a priestess doesn’t make a patriarchal society.
Prohibitions against dressing fancy for women and only women has nothing to do with combatting paganism. Men participated in the cult of Artemis yet Paul said nothing about restricting men. Paul does not mention paganism nor heresy.
Paul did not make those proscription just for Timothy. He said “I”. Your version did not show any mistranslation.
Corinthians also says woman should not speak in church in so it cannot be a special case only for Timothy.
Where is the admonishment that men should do the same?
You just restarted the blatant sexism that everyone complains about.
Maybe changing the context will help you see the problem:
Is that racist? If you can see the racism, then read your statement again and see the sexism that you defend.
You are doing the libertarian thing and completely and repeatedly ignoring context. Do you also try to argue “woke DEI is the real racism?”
What on earth makes you think I am defending sexism? I am pointing out that sexists deliberately misinterpret this letter — exactly as you are doing — to subjugate women in the here and now, while that is in no way what this letter is about. If you read some of my other comments you will know that I am a militant atheist but I get really pissed when people intentionally misuse these documents as a weapon against others, including myself.
Again “women” is NOT universal in this context. It is “ambitious, entitled, and wealthy Artimisian women of Ephesus”. It is very specific, not universal. I am not sure how to make this more clear since you continue to dismiss that objective fact in favor of a sexist, wildly fallacious modern xtian re-interpretation.
Maybe we have our wires crossed. I am not trying to perform apologetics, but correcting the record for a historical document that academics understand very well, but is nevertheless a holy weapon for ambitious, immoral, political tyrants because people are stupid, ignorant, and uneducated all the things this letter is specifically admonishing against.