As a queer person (agender) with a conservative dad, I don’t get why he says he wants to go back to the 1950s. What was so special back then besides his reasoning that times were simpler? I feel like it would be harder for me then as a queer person.
As a queer person (agender) with a conservative dad, I don’t get why he says he wants to go back to the 1950s. What was so special back then besides his reasoning that times were simpler? I feel like it would be harder for me then as a queer person.
This is nonsense, again.
The Soviet economy worked very well, and was one of the fastest growing economies of the 20th century. The difference between the wealthiest and the poorest was about 5 times, compared to hundreds to thousands in capitalist countries (and even more).
The PRC has a Socialist Market Economy, the large firms and key industries are state owned and planned. They are pragmatic and learned, which is why they maintained socialism.
Yes, the PRC is proof that socialism works astoundingly well.
Again, you return to vibes-based nonsense. The Soviet Union was more democratic than capitalist countries, and the PRC is as well.
Haha my family emigrated from Russia in the 90s, don’t tell me about the real life in the Soviet Union.
The difference between wealthiest and poorest was surely much smaller, but the living standard overall was also much lower. My grandpa telling stories how he had to stay in line in the hope to get some sausage for the family, or about the underground black markets where people illegally were exchanging western goods that simply did not exist in the Soviet Union. The misplanned and falsely reported production, factory owners faking their numbers to appear like they satisfy quota. My grand-grandpa barely not being sent to a Gulag because we’re an ethnic minority, even though he was a WWII war hero. Having to use connections and swaps to organize having an independent apartment for your adult children and their partners. Having to engage in everyday bribing of officials to get some paperwork ready not in months but weeks, because that’s the only way to get things done there.
Is this more than vibe to you? You are not exactly quoting academic literature either.
I have heard enough stories to know that this is not a system I could see or want myself existing in and I’m happy I grew up in central Europe.
The PRC is doing its own thing. You can call it socialist market, but this term I have never heard before, the usual term is state capitalism. What we can agree on is that they are doing pretty well at the moment.
I’m not trying to be mean here, but I really don’t care about anecdotes. When I say that the Soviet economy was strong and maintained some of the highest rates of growth in the world all while having a lower disparity, it’s because I’ve done the reading and research to see that. A quick article like *Do Publicly Owned, Planned Economies Work? by Stephen Gowans, or a full book like Is the Red Flag Flying? The Political Economy of the Soviet Union by Albert Syzmanski or Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti all do a far better job than anecdotes at seeing what conditions were actually like systemically.
I’m also not saying the Soviet Union was perfect. There indeed were issues with black markets, misplanning, etc, but they didn’t outweigh the dramatic benefits the system provided. It’s no wonder that the majority of people who lived through the Soviet system wish it had remained. With the reintroduction of capitalism in the 90s, an estimated 7 million people died due to a loss in safety nets and a dramatic increase in poverty around the world.
The achievements of the USSR and its failings need to be contextualized in the fact that, unlike western countries, the USSR was a developing country. With it, however, came around the developed world a mass expansion in safety nets in order to provide what the USSR was already providing for its people. With the fall of the USSR, wealth disparity around the world began to climb more rapidly than ever:
As for the PRC, “Socialist Market Economy” is the official term for its economy. The fact that you admit to never hearing that term before means you haven’t actually done much research into it. State Capitalism refers to countries where private ownership is principle, ie governs the large firms and key industries, but with strong state influence, like Bismark’s Germany, the Republic of Korea, and Singapore. In the PRC, it’s public property that governs the large firms and key industries.
The system overall is called Socialism With Chinese Characteristics, or SWCC. Here’s a study guide for it, in more depth. The key takeaway is that private property and markets existed in Mao’s era, in the USSR, etc, the modern PRC isn’t very different from those in terms of where the balance of power lies. Trying to plan all of the small, underdeveloped industry can often slow growth, while planning and controlling the large firms and key industries is not only more effective economically, also retains proletarian control over the economy. As the small and medium firms are developed through market forces, they can be better intrgrated into central planning and have their property gradually sublimated. It’s Marxism-Leninism applied to the conditions of modern China, also called Marxism-Leninism-Xi Jinping Thought. So yes, China is absolutely socialist.
My very original statement was about the fact regulated markets makes sense as an instrument in an economy, and as long as they are ultimately controlled to work to the benefit for the people, they are a useful instrument. I am strongly against the idea that markets are the ultimate ordering principle for society. If by “capitalism” you mean this, then sure, I am against capitalism. But this extreme free market capitalism has a name - neoliberalism. I’m against neoliberalism, because it leads to inequality and fascism.
I don’t see where we even disagree, except for how to call certain combinations and variations of features in an economy. Honestly, I don’t believe how to call it is so important except for the fact we agree on the actual meaning behind the practical outcome.
China has always been a syncretic culture that is really good at incorporating various elements that make sense in a holistic way into their culture. They digested socialism just as they digested capitalism and just as they digested Buddhism when it was new.
In any case thanks for your links, I’m currently reading a survey about China (not focused on only the last century), so this can complement my reading.
First off, I apologize if I came off as hostile. That’s not really my intent, I try to correct misconceptions and misunderstandings surrounding Marxism and Marxism-Leninism when I see them.
Overall, the Marxist view on markets is that at lower stages of development, they can serve a progressive role, but at higher stages they impede progress and even turn into imperialism, as we see in Europe and the US, ie the global north. Capitalism is best described as a system by which private property is the principle aspect of an economy, ie the large firms and key industries are privately owned. In such a condition, this means private property also has control of the state, so markets will largely play a reactionary role in exploiting and oppressing the masses. Socialism can make use of limited markets while retaining state control of the large firms and key industries to get the good growth of markets in lower development while taking advantage of the numerous benefits of central planning at higher stages in development.
Capitalism itself leads to inequality and fascism. There isn’t a way to escape this, there is no such thing as a static capitalism. It either forces imperialism outwardly, is stuck at simple reproduction in imperialized countries (rather than reproduction on an expanded scale), or turns to fascism, if it doesn’t have a socialist revolution.
As for the PRC, they are firmly Marxist-Leninist, specifically Marxism-Leninism-Xi Jinping Thought, which is largely a synthesis of ML-Mao Zedong Thought and Deng Xiaoping Theory, itself an addendum to MZT. Their system is firmly socialist, their use of markets and private property is in a controlled manner that can only be controlled as such in a primarily planned economy. Without understanding this, you won’t be able to see why the PRC is on the rise and is so stable, while Social Democracies in Europe are on the decline.
You’re welcome for the links. If you want a standard reading list for Marxism-Leninism, I made an introductory one you can check out if you ever get the interest. You’ll be able to better understand the USSR, it’s strengths and weaknesses, and why the PRC is currently succeeding.
No worries. Yeah, you came off as somewhat hostile, or maybe I mixed you up with the other commenter.
What is annoying on Lemmy (this does not apply to you) are the cliche “tankies” who immediately accuse everyone who is not of their opinion to be a fascist or support fascism. That for sure won’t help the cause of educating the proletariat.
Paradoxically, such people are pushing many just ignorant or centrist-minded people towards the right, and this does a great disservice to the left basically everywhere, rubbing people under their nose how they are supposedly wrong or bad (not saying that there are no people with truly horrible and wrong views, just saying you for sure won’t convince them that way).
I think the left should not only study socialism/Marxism/etc, but also much more psychology. Being or feeling right is easy, convincing others - that’s the hard part, and most left movements are really bad at their “marketing”, while the fascists have nothing to offer, but are better at PR. It’s a frustrating state of affairs.
Thanks for staying civil and constructive.
I don’t really blame many of the Marxists here for being short on patience, much of the arguments we have are the same exact arguments we’ve had day after day. I do think patience tends to be more useful in dialogue, but I also can’t expect everyone else to uphold that.
Take care!