• QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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        13 hours ago

        Only if you are eurocentric and accept liberalism as a default state. I would argue eurocentric perspectives are inherently problematic.

        • ☂️-@lemmy.ml
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          6 hours ago

          dude is openly liberal, regardless of what the default is in their part of the world (and its usually neoliberalism anyway)

          • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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            6 hours ago

            Neoliberalism is absolutely not the default when we look at the whole world. If we look at the developed world it is the default. That is not the case for everyone.

            Your binary only makes sense for some of the world. That’s why I keep pointing to how eurocentric it us.

    • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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      1 day ago

      Someone hearing for the first time that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher are staunch liberals.

      • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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        13 hours ago

        That entirely depends on whether we accept liberalism as a default which most nations do not. Most of the world is still arguing authoritarianism vs liberalism right now.

        • mathemachristian[he]@lemmy.ml
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          16 hours ago

          Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism
          Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism

          • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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            13 hours ago

            That presumes the binary is focused on economy when most nations are still debating freedom from the government and thus liberalism should be the start of the left.

            • IttihadChe@lemmy.ml
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              8 hours ago

              This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly “freedom from the government” whatever that means(it’s not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it’s not)

              • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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                7 hours ago

                And you are presuming the discussions being had are about capitalism when they are still debating the role of the government in private ownership.

                It’s a eurocentric position. It’s odd how many “leftists” fall into this.

          • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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            13 hours ago

            No, it fucking has not. It is quite literally the definition of where “the left” begins. In the wake of the French revolution the liberals sat on the left side of parliament.

          • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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            20 hours ago

            Classical liberalism is an iteration of liberalism. It is not liberalism. There are also Democratic liberalism and social liberalism among many others. Almost all lean left of center with classic liberalism being more center

            • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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              17 hours ago

              Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul.

            • MotoAsh@lemmy.world
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              Yea but neoliberals are not left. The fuck do you think US democrats are classic liberals? Also classic liberals are still capitalist supporting fuckwits, so the distinction is irrelevant when discussing the modern left.

              • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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                20 hours ago

                Right and there is more than classic liberalism. As I said. The majority of the others are left of center with classic liberalism being the outlier. Of which, Democrats still are right of classic liberalism

        • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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          23 hours ago

          Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.

          We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.


          This is a very introductory overview to liberalism:

          The most in-depth delving into it is Losurdo’s Liberalism - A counter history, but you’d have to read many more foundational texts before that one.

          • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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            13 hours ago

            It should be the other way around that capitalism was created to justify liberalism because you have liberal philosophers writing decades to centuries before the capitalists.

          • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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            23 hours ago

            Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, the right to private property, and equality before the law.[1][2] Liberals espouse various and often mutually conflicting views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion.[3] Liberalism is frequently cited as the dominant ideology of modern history.[4][5]: 11

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

            Emerging together does not mean they are dependent on each other.

            • merdaverse@lemmy.zip
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              13 hours ago

              the right to private property

              Wow that sounds sooo leftist. I think you’re about 150 years late in defining liberalism as “the left”

            • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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              23 hours ago

              How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s?

              Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can’t.

              • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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                13 hours ago

                You read books but do you read current news? Most of the world is still debating if they should be free of the government which is a binary that very much places liberalism on the left.

                Why are you holding such a Eurocentric perspective in face of the fact that most are not having the anticapitalist vs capitalist discussion you seem to think they are having?

              • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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                22 hours ago

                😆

                Do you even read bro

                Yes I read. Like how I read that Wikipedia link and the other supporting links and references I’ve posted. All saying liberalism is left.

        • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
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          17 hours ago

          I just wish that people here would take time to explain why liberals are not left instead of just attacking you.

          Liberalism is not left because by definition they are socially progressive but economically conservative.

          I used to think the liberals are “left” because of the Americam mainstream media (by intentionally muddying political terms) interchange liberal between left. But thanks to Philosophy Tube’s beginner’s video explaining what it means, now I know better.

          • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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            13 hours ago

            No, you are using a different binary and I would argue you are using the incorrect binary as most are not dividing over support for capitalism.

          • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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            23 hours ago

            Yea but you’re all not authority on any of this. So it doesn’t matter. The rest of the world knows liberalism as left of center. Just facts

            • mathemachristian[he]@lemmy.ml
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              16 hours ago

              we just had a coalition of liberals, "social"democrats and greens here in Germany. Believe me no one thinks that liberals are left of center.

              • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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                11 hours ago

                This isn’t really relevant here. Social liberalism, democratic liberalism as categories are defined as left of center. A green group and another group labelling themselves socialist whatever isn’t changing what the definition is for sometime with different names

                • mathemachristian[he]@lemmy.ml
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                  6 hours ago

                  The “other group labelling themselves socialist” is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I’m curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center.

                • grue@lemmy.world
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                  11 hours ago

                  My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous.

                  • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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                    11 hours ago

                    And I told you, you posted a link to classic liberalism. It is a subset of liberalism it is not liberalism

                • MotoAsh@lemmy.world
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                  20 hours ago

                  No. We’re right. You’ve been given references. Just because you obstinantly ignore those references does not make you correct or smart.

                  • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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                    No I’m right I gave references, nobody has provided anything that has shown that liberalism is right

        • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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          13 hours ago

          They are taking a frankly eurocentric perspective which presumes the debate is anticapitalism vs capitalism when I would posit that most nations are still debating liberalism vs authoritarianism hence the claim that they are eurocentric as the binary only makes sense for Europe.

          • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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            11 hours ago

            I agree which is what I was waiting for someone to say. Just want to let you know I appreciate you from saying it. Until then I was just having fun here 😆

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      1 day ago

      No, they aren’t. Liberalism is the ideological superstructure of capitalism, while leftists support socialism of various fashions. The driving distinction between right and left is retaining the current system, or progressing onwards to the next.

      • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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        https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/left-liberals

        https://civix.ca/resources/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Backgrounder-Lesson-2-The-Political-Spectrum.pdf

        Liberal/Left-leaning people embrace social services and government intervention in the economy. Conservative/Right-leaning people support lower taxes, free markets and less government intervention in the economy. Libertarians advocate both personal and economic liberty (freedom). Authoritarians favour strict obedience to authority and government control, at the expense of personal and economic freedom.

        https://www.dictionary.com/e/leftright/

        the word left is applied to people and groups that have liberal views.

        • DornerStan@lemmygrad.ml
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          lmao what is it with people trying to map abstract political concepts onto geometric and spacial shapes?

          The colloquial meaning of “liberal” used by some Americans does not align with how it’s used in political theory. That’s okay, words have different meaning in different contexts.

          “Left” and “right” stem from the French Revolution (1789!) where the people who sat on the left of the National Assembly were progressives that supported the revolution and people who sat on the right were conservatives that wanted to preserve the old system. Liberalism (as defined in political theory, not colloquially) is the dominant global ideology and thus is no longer progressive or radical. It may have been progressive when monarchy was the main form of government, propping up feudalism as the main economic structure. But that’s obviously not how the world works 200+ years later

        • This is a very typically American point of view, which tends to lump a lot of people together as “liberal” despite this internationally not being the norm at all.

          Here’s a definition of liberalism:

          Liberalism is a political philosophy and ideology that emphasizes individual rights, liberties, and limited government. It promotes ideas like free markets, free trade, and social equality, while often advocating for a strong emphasis on individual autonomy and civil liberties.

          Note specifically how it says individual rights. The idea with liberalism is that if everyone is similarly unrestrained by the government, and has the same civil liberties, there is an even playing field in which individuals can personally grow and excel. This neatly links together with the liberal belief in a free market, free trade, etc…

          A strict liberal idealogy will also adopt several progressive policies w.r.t. civil liberties, like gay rights (as this causes social equality -> level playing field for competition). But liberalism is still a strictly capitalist idealogy, with a strong emphasis on the free market and free trade.

          Generally, this individualistic approach to rights is considered socially progressive and economically right-wing. And we see that this is the case in most countries around the world, e.g. Australia’s liberal party or the Dutch VVD. The Dutch VVD is a good example to look at here, they are considered very firmly right-wing, but their party platform most closely matches to that of the DNC. In the US, the two major parties are both righg-wing, one is a moderately progressive right-wing party (with some left-wingers in there, but they aren’t very influential w.r.t. party policy because it’s such a small minority) and the other is a conservative/authoritarian right-wing party.

          Because both parties sit firmly on the right of the spectrum, they’ve come to distinguish themselves on social policy rather than economic policy. They’ve remapped the progressive-conservative axis on the left-right axis and called it a day. But in most countries, these axes are very much distinct. Here’s the “political compass” for the Netherlands for example:

          Note how there are only two fairly fringe parties to the right of the VVD. Also it’s interesting to note here that the PVV (the “far-right” party with the bird symbol near the bottom) isn’t even all that far right. Their economic policies aren’t actually all that focused on free market dynamics, and they do promote certain social policies. But their hardline immigration stance pushes them very firmly in the conservative camp. And although there’s certainly a correlation between left-progressive and right-conservative, there are still major differences between the parties along this diagonal axis.

          Generally, actual left-wing people (be they progressive or conservative) don’t like being lumped in with liberals, because they don’t focus on as much on individual freedom but rather on collective freedom and on policies that benefit the collective. Hence their insistence on actually looking at the full political spectrum rather than the simplified/reducted version of it.

          You’re not wrong that people in the US tend to call liberals “left-wing”, but it’s a very reductive, American perspective not shared by political scientists or the rest of the world.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          Yes, liberals tend to define the entire scope of political economy to a narrow, capitalist viewpoint. That doesn’t make it correct. A huge range of viewpoints narrowly occupies the “radical” portion, while an absolute mountain of space comparatively is given to subdivisions of capitalism. It’s a deeply silly graph.

          • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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            I think I get it. Right wing groups like koch Bros and heritage institutes push the left to fracture into very niche small subsets in order to isolate making it hard for those groups to organize and easier to kill them off. Much like how a cheetah separates a young calf from the herd. So what groups are you talking about for your “huge range of viewpoints”

            Totally not silly at all to get hyper specific about political ideology. I’m a liberal right center neo cat Audi rhino born a capitalist but transitioned to a socialist somewhere around 1992 when political synergy was at its peak

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              Nah, it aint that deep. The left wants socialism, the right wants capitalism. There are differences in views among leftists and right-wingers, but the base is in if the principle aspect of the economy should be public, or private.

              • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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                Not all left want socialism. The political spectrum is not divided by “want socialism / do not want socialism”

                But you’re right it’s not that deep

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  No, the left want socialism, be it anarchism, marxist socialism, etc. Capitalism is not the “absence of socialism,” it’s its own thing.

                  You’re confusing people calling right-wing parties like the DNC “left” in the context of USian politics, but that’s because the left is fringe, in parties like PSL.

                  What do you think makes the divide? Why are you so insistent on calling capitalism “left wing?”

                  • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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                    Jesus I’m so sick and tired of people parroting this DNC line. Nobody has mentioned the DNC here.

                    Capitalism is not a defining feature of being left. There is more to being on the left than just socialist ideals

    • folaht@lemmy.ml
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      Liberals are rightwing.

      There was a brief moment the US democratic party went social democratic, from Roosevelt to Carter and these days there’s a small resurgance with Mamdani.

      But Clinton, Obama, Biden, Harris and Cuomo are all at the very least centre-right wing.

        • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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          Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.

          We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.


          Canada’s two main parties are both right-wing. They support capitalism, and the rule of capitalists over the economy and government. The canadian conservative party agrees with them in that.

          Or look at Australia. Their two main parties are Labour vs the liberal party (both are pretty right wing, but in that country the liberals openly position themselves to the right of the other party).

          Or take Japan. Their far right party is called the liberal democrats.

        • xthexder@l.sw0.com
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          24 hours ago

          This is a discussion about liberals in the US, not the liberal party of Canada, which is decidedly left of US politics as a whole.

    • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.ml
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      How can liberals be left when liberalism is the hegemonic ideology in the US. Both parties are liberal and both parties represent oligarch interests, the only difference between them is in how to manage the internal contradictions of the country.

    • Asafum@feddit.nl
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      It’s a failure of terms used in US politics. When we say “left” and “right” we pretty much exclusively are talking about their position in respect to one another as opposed to the actual policies the parties hold.

      Republicans are much more “conservative” (right wing) than Democrats (liberals) are, so the Republicans are the right and the Democrats become the “left” as they aren’t as conservative and therefore they are “to the left” of Republicans.

      If you were to look at global definitions as to what it means to be a left wing party, Democrats really don’t fit there.

      • Thebigguy@lemmy.ml
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        It’s crazy what absolutely no knowledge about various political and philosophical movements does to a mfer.

    • Thebigguy@lemmy.ml
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      No they’re not, I hate to break it to you but most conservatives are liberals. What you’re referring to is liberals picking up on social policies championed by the left.