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Salsifi@lemmy.world to Memes@lemmy.ml · 2 years ago

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Every day, EVERY - DAY

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Salsifi@lemmy.world to Memes@lemmy.ml · 2 years ago
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  • Ilovethebomb@lemmy.ml
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    2 years ago

    There have been at least two different countries seize the means of production over the years, it didn’t really work out for either of them. Turns out they just swapped one bourgeoise class for another, while the peasants and proles starved.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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      2 years ago

      What you said is fractally wrong.

      • Ilovethebomb@lemmy.ml
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        2 years ago

        What do fractals have to do with this?

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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          2 years ago

          https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fractal_wrongness

          • Ilovethebomb@lemmy.ml
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            2 years ago

            Really? So the USSR and China during the cultural revolution were utopias where everyone had their basic needs met, and nobody went hungry?

            • Bernie Ecclestoned@sh.itjust.works
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              2 years ago

              I bet they link some bs survey about how life is great in China

              • Ilovethebomb@lemmy.ml
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                2 years ago

                China isn’t communist anymore anyway.

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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                  2 years ago

                  It absolutely is.

                  • Ilovethebomb@lemmy.ml
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                    2 years ago

                    Sorry bud, they’re as capitalist as any other country these days. They even have billionaires now.

                  • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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                    2 years ago

                    Their wealth disparity is on par with the US. If they are communist, they are failing hardcore.

              • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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                2 years ago

                Everything that contradicts western propaganda is bs. Such galaxy brain logic you’ve got there.

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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              2 years ago

              Well, let’s just see what happened during cultural revolution, sure seems like an improvement over what was happening before https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25495509/

              Meanwhile, Russia went from a backwards agrarian society where people travelled by horse and carriage to being the first in space in the span of 40 years. Russia showed incredible growth after the revolution that surpassed the rest of the world:

              • https://wid.world/document/soviets-oligarchs-inequality-property-russia-1905-2016/
              • https://wid.world/document/appendix-soviets-oligarchs-inequality-property-russia-1905-2016-wid-world-working-paper-201710/

              USSR provided free education to all citizens resulting in literacy rising from 33% to 99.9%:

              • http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/PubEdUSSR.htm
              • http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/anglosov.htm
              • http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0000/000013/001300eo.pdf
              • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likbez

              USSR doubled life expectancy in just 20 years. A newborn child in 1926-27 had a life expectancy of 44.4 years, up from 32.3 years thirty years before. In 1958-59 the life expectancy for newborns went up to 68.6 years. the Semashko system of the USSR increased lifespan by 50% in 20 years. By the 1960’s, lifespans in the USSR were comparable to those in the USA:

              • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union
              • https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB5054/index1.html

              Quality of nutrition improved after the Soviet revolution, and the last time USSR had a famine was in 1940s. CIA data suggests they ate just as much as Americans after WW2 peroid while having better nutrition:

              • https://www.scribd.com/document/430076844/CIA-RDP84B00274R000300150009-5-pdf

              USSR moved from 58.5-hour work weeks to 41.6 hour work weeks (-0.36 h/yr) between 1913 and 1960:

              • https://books.google.com/books?id=x8JYjwEACAAJ
              • https://b-ok.cc/book/2669908/77497f

              USSR averaged 22 days of paid leave in 1986 while USA averaged 7.6 in 1996:

              • https://www.ilo.org/public/libdoc/ilo/1994/94B09_66_englp2.pdf
              • https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm

              In 1987, people in the USSR could retire with pension at 55 (female) and 60 (male) while receiving 50% of their wages at a at minimum. Meanwhile, in USA the average retirement age was 62-67 and the average (not median) retiree household in the USA could expect $48k/yr which comes out to 65% of the 74k average (not median) household income in 2016:

              • https://www.ilo.org/public/libdoc/ilo/1994/94B09_66_englp2.pdf
              • https://www.cbsnews.com/news/could-you-get-by-on-the-average-americans-retirement-income/

              GDP took off after socialism was established and then collapsed with the reintroduction of capitalism:

              • https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Soviet_Union_GDP_per_capita.gif

              The Soviet Union had the highest physician/patient ratio in the world. USSR had 42 doctors per 10,000 population compared to 24 in Denmark and Sweden, and 19 in US:

              • http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0735675784900482 (sci-hub for access)

              • USSR defeated a smallpox epidemic in a matter of 19 days https://www.rbth.com/history/331857-how-ussr-defeated-black-smallpox

              • The Social Consequences of Soviet Immunization Policies https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/1997-812-03g-Hoch.pdf

              These are just some of the biggest technological and social achievements of the Soviet Union.

              academic studies on USSR

              Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid growth that made the achievements listed above possible:

              • https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.507.8966&rep=rep1&type=pdf

              Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time:

              • https://www.jstor.org/stable/2672986?seq=1

              A large study using world bank data analyzing the quality of life in Capitalist vs Socialist countries and finds overwhelmingly at similar levels of development with socialism bringing better quality of life:

              • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646771/pdf/amjph00269-0055.pdf

              This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development.

              • https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2430906/

              This study shows that unprecedented mortality crisis struck Eastern Europe during the 1990s, causing around 7 million excess deaths. The first quantitative analysis of the association between deindustrialization and mortality in Eastern Europe.

              • https://academic.oup.com/cje/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cje/beac072/7081084?guestAccessKey=01c8dd9f-af1c-48b3-b271-eb5d3a45017c&login=false

              So, how do people who lived under communism feel now that they got a taste of capitalism?

              • A remarkable 72% of Hungarians say that most people in their country are actually worse off today economically than they were under communism. Only 8% say most people in Hungary are better off, and 16% say things are about the same. In no other Central or Eastern European country surveyed did so many believe that economic life is worse now than during the communist era. This is the result of almost universal displeasure with the economy. Fully 94% describe the country’s economy as bad, the highest level of economic discontent in the hard hit region of Central and Eastern Europe. Just 46% of Hungarians approve of their country’s switch from a state-controlled economy to a market economy; 42% disapprove of the move away from communism. The public is even more negative toward Hungary’s integration into Europe; 71% say their country has been weakened by the process.

              • The most incredible result was registered in a July 2010 IRES (Romanian Institute for Evaluation and Strategy) poll, according to which 41% of the respondents would have voted for Ceausescu, had he run for the position of president. And 63% of the survey participants said their life was better during communism, while only 23% attested that their life was worse then. Some 68% declared that communism was a good idea, just one that had been poorly applied.

              • Glorification of the German Democratic Republic is on the rise two decades after the Berlin Wall fell. Young people and the better off are among those rebuffing criticism of East Germany as an “illegitimate state.” In a new poll, more than half of former eastern Germans defend the GDR.

              • A poll shows that as many as 81 per cent of Serbians believe they lived best in the former Yugoslavia -“during the time of socialism”. The survey focused on the respondents’ views on the transition “from socialism to capitalism”, and a clear majority said they trusted social institutions the most during the rule of Yugoslav communist president Josip Broz Tito. The standard of living during Tito’s rule from the Second World War to the 1980s was also assessed as best, whereas the Milosevic decade of the 1990s, and the subsequent decade since the fall of his regime are seen as “more or less the same”. 45 percent said they trusted social institutions most under communism with 23 percent choosing the 2001-2003 period when Zoran Djinđic was prime minister. Only 19 per cent selected present-day institutions.

              • 75% of Russians have expressed increasingly positive opinions about the Soviet Union over the years. Only a small portion of those surveyed said they had negative associations with the Soviet Union. The economic deficit, long lines and coupons were named by 4% of respondents each, while the Iron Curtain, economic stagnation and political repressions were named by 1% each, the Levada Center said.

              • Adult mortality increased enormously in Russia and other countries of the former Soviet Union when the Soviet system collapsed 30 years ago. https://archive.ph/9Z12u

              • Former Soviet Countries See More Harm From Breakup https://news.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx

              The Free market paradise goes East chapters in Blackshirts and Reds details some more results of the transition to capitalism.

              • iByteABit [he/him]@lemm.ee
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                2 years ago

                I love how either no one anwers to these, or they claim they’re made up after pretending that they’re more informed and definitely not living in their own propaganda reality.

                I bet the response to this will be that they don’t have time for these walls of text because they’re too busy working.

                • Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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                  2 years ago

                  Probably because nobody is going to read a big wall of text like that, with the sole purpose of debunking. People have better things to do with their time.

                  • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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                    2 years ago

                    TheRadBrad: “How conVENient”

              • Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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                2 years ago

                I mean, you are comparing it to the US, which is about the worse country in the west that is still called “developed”.

                Do the same with Norway, Finland, Denmark or Sweden. Your choice.

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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                  2 years ago

                  Oh you mean compare with colonial regimes that brutally exploit the rest of the world to prop up their own standard of living?

                  If you’re comfortable with these sort of things happening so you can live well then what else is there to say https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us

          • original_ish_name@lemm.ee
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            2 years ago

            rationalwiki

            I’d rather have no source than that source

      • Bernie Ecclestoned@sh.itjust.works
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        2 years ago

        Ever heard of Cambodia?

        • zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          2 years ago

          And Pol Pot got deposed by Vietnam after they kicked the US out. They really should get more credit…

        • Ilovethebomb@lemmy.ml
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          2 years ago

          That’s another one. They killed a large chunk of their population, didn’t they?

          • Bernie Ecclestoned@sh.itjust.works
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            2 years ago

            Between 21-24%

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide

            • Ilovethebomb@lemmy.ml
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              2 years ago

              Jesus, I’d forgotten just how bad it was.

              • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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                2 years ago

                And it took until 1997 to arrest Pol Pot. He does of a heart attack the following year.

        • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
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          2 years ago

          They literally only claimed to be communist for a few years out of their decades long rule. They had cia connections. The vietnamese communists overthrew them and installed a communist democracy. But sure, they’re communist /s.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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          2 years ago

          This Cambodia? https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/03/20/american-bombing-50-years-ago-still-shapes-cambodian-agriculture

          • Bernie Ecclestoned@sh.itjust.works
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            2 years ago

            Yes that one, the one with all the Chinese land mines, both countries have done shitty things, there are no good guys

            I think I’m going to call people like you Tankards, like a tankie, but with added tard

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_mines_in_Cambodia

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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              2 years ago

              Only question is what the fuck was US doing murdering people half way across the world. I guess that’s the whole missionary mentality coming from enlightened Europeans where your tradition is to go around the world to kill and enslave people.

              • Bernie Ecclestoned@sh.itjust.works
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                2 years ago

                My tradition? All those people are dead, and I’m pretty sure the Barbary pirates weren’t European but still took slaves, as did most of Asia.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Asia

                Judging historical events by today’s standards is fucking stupid.

                The CCP is literally enslaving and sterilising Uyghurs right now, cretin

                https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-birthrate-sterilization-genocide

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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                  The only thing that’s fucking stupid here is pretending that the west isn’t practising colonialism today and that your standard of living isn’t subsidized by the people literally enslaved by western companies https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us

                  The CCP is literally enslaving and sterilising Uyghurs right now, cretin

                  Yeah you keep on peddling debunked conspiracy theories there since that’s all you’ve got to wok with. Weird how Uyghur population keeps growing. China can’t even get genocide right apparently. Should probably learn from the brits how to do it right.

                  • Bernie Ecclestoned@sh.itjust.works
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                    2 years ago

                    Yet more whataboutism, suprise

                    Fuck off and learn something instead of spamming my inbox Tankard

                    After becoming the Communist Party of China’s chief of Xinjiang Province in 2016, Chen Quanguo oversaw a security crackdown that led to a drop in births so sharp that it shocked the world. Some observers accused China’s leadership of committing genocide against the province’s mostly Muslim Uyghur population through forced sterilization and abortion.

                    https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/xinjiang-uyghur-crackdown-population-decline-by-yi-fuxian-2022-07

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