How to say Marx was right without saying “Marx was right”.
Has been for ages. It’s now question of how bad, and we are still making it worse.
Fuck that. It’s never lost, it’s just that we are constantly heading towards worse outcomes.
If we as humanity start taking it seriously tomorrow, it would still be a victory over only starting in a decade.
It’s not lost, it’s just getting worse, and that should make people want to fight.
saying that the fight is lost is just creating more disengagement and hopelessness.
I like the saying “The best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago, the second best is today.” Because it is almost universally true about any long term goal.
You are using the broadest possible definition of “lost.”
Lost as in no more human civilization. It doesn’t matter when you start doing stuff, that future is coming. We could maybe slow it at this point, but not much else and even that is up for debate with all the tipping points being reached. They will have a far greater effect on the climate than anything that we do now.
Human civilization is bound to die at some point. If we give up now it will just happen faster and with more suffering. If we fight we will still improve things, maybe not everything will be okay, but when has it ever been?
But we’re not starting tomorrow. It’s not that we’re clueless, we know what to do and why, but we don’t.
We are light years a head of where we were a century ago. And I hope in a few decades it will be true about today.
We have started to reduce how much worse we make it, and a fair bit of progress has been made there in some countries, UK carbon emissions are less than half what they were per capita several decades ago.
When I was young we had a fireplace and would often burn coal in winter. Now I have a heat pump to warm my entire house by extracting thermal energy from the atmosphere.
I think he’s right, but he’s also a real asshole and lives in a mansion in Vancouver and likely creates more environmental damage than the average human
If I had mansion money I would buy land to live in a self built mud hut.
Less people accept climate change in Canada today than 20 years ago. If we couldn’t do anything about it then, why would now be different?
That’s how I feel, like it might not be too late to do something but people just don’t care. And if we don’t do this together its pointless.
Let climate change end humanity, we fucking deserve it
The problem is humanity is taking most of the other species in the world with it. Just the methane/permafrost feedback loop out of dozens of feedback loops will usher in the level of warming and ensuing extinctions experienced during the Permian/Triassic die off.
The ruling elite are incinerating all of us for profit, and they don’t give a shit.
Canada (and the world) will burn. You think migrants are a problem now? Wait until millions of people have no choice but to go north and the water wars start.
O damn, almost forgot about the water wars. Those were brutal. Before those people genuinely believed there was nothing bigger than a World War. The fools. Like if you’re still here in 2125.
The water wars will start far sooner than that
Pakistan and India, Egypt and Ethiopia. Various states in the southwest are looking to pop off when the civil war starts up. Water wars are starting NOW.
the spice must flow!
Saying we have failed is the easiest thing to say.
Because its true?
Barely anything had been done these past decades and the result is that boat loads of people now believe conspiracy crap over the actual truth that climate change will milk us all
I fully expect that even less will be done in the next years so yeah, were screwed
Fight for climate change is not lost, it’s still actively being fought by scientists, entrepreneurs, content creators, journalists and activists all over the planet.
Oil companies like this narrative of lost. It was always, don’t worry we still have time until now when it’s leaning towards “whoopsie too late”. It’s not too late, we are not all going to die because of climate change.
Right now climate change is on track to be horrible for large parts of the world but there’s plenty more we can fuck up beyond that.
There is also the potential for climate solutions. We have been driving things in one direction by pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. There are ways to do the opposite rapidly, just not as easy. Solar/Wind/Nuclear powered carbon sequestration and ocean fertilization are possible if all else is lost.
Happy to discuss realistic impactful solutions rather than just cycling doomerism with anyone interested.
I suggest actually doing something about it then. Direct your frustration towards something productive. Take the risk because if we don’t then no one will.
Here’s why your comment is horseshit:
The cost of solar photovoltaic (PV) technology dropped by 81% since 2009, and wind and battery costs have also plummeted. By 2017, most new power-generating capacity added worldwide came from renewables, not fossil fuels.
A comprehensive review of 1,500 climate policy measures across 41 countries found 63 cases of successful policies, each leading to an average emission reduction of 19%. The most effective policies combined tax and price incentives with regulations and subsidies.
Although global greenhouse gas emissions reached record highs in the 2010s, the rate of growth has slowed, in part due to climate policies and the adoption of cleaner technologies.
The Montreal Protocol (1987) successfully phased out ozone-depleting substances, demonstrating that coordinated global action can work. This agreement also had climate benefits, as many of the banned substances were potent greenhouse gases.
Doesn’t mean it’s not the truth.
Let’s be clear about something; climate scientists almost universally agree that there is no such thing as “winning” or “losing” the fight against climate change (Suzuki, for the record, is a zoologist, not a climate scientist). This isn’t a game, there’s no referee, and no one gets a trophy at the end.
The battle against climate change is about mitigating harm. The worse we do, the more harm there will be. But there is never a point where it is “too late”. The car is going to crash, but the sooner you hit the brakes, the less damaging the impact will be. Everything we do to push the needle will save lives. There is never a point where we get to throw up our hands and succumb to the comforting fantasy that it’s “too late” to change anything.
I have a lot of respect for Suzuki, and I don’t blame him for feeling defeated with everything that’s happening, but spreading this kind of message is, dangerous, damaging, and flies entirely in the face of the science.
Suzuki is and always was just a mouthpiece for corporate masters. Controlled opposition to steer public opinion. He is not and never will be a climatologist. His message is one of defeat because his backers want us to give up.
Suzuki can kiss my white ass.
“Too late” implies civilization collapse to me. That’s pretty much guaranteed once the warming we’re locked into happens.
Back before George W Bush directed NASA to call it climate change, it was called global warming, and you can definitely win against that - by stopping the earth from warming. That’s unwinnable due to feedback loops that have now begun.
Does not remotely address my point. We can always - always - work to reduce the harm caused by climate change.
The point where the harm could be reduced to “none” is decades past us. If that’s the point where you give up then fuck off. Climate change is actively causing harm as we speak, and it is still worth fighting. We can still make life better for ourselves and future generations.
The notion that climate change is some kind of runaway engine that will continue amok without any further human input is nonsense. Yes, I’m aware of ideas like “Permafrost methane bombs” and I’ve also done enough research to be aware that only a small fringe of climate scientists actually support those ideas. They’re flashy and exciting and get big press, but they are not widely accepted climate science.
What climate science shows is that the climate actually responds faster to reductions in CO2 than our older models predicted. That means that debacarbonization can have real and meaningful positive impacts beyond what we previously thought possible.
There is real damage already done, and there is damage that we cannot undo, but there is never a point where the problem goes beyond our input. The climate fight is always worth fighting.
Sort of? I don’t think he mentioned tipping points anywhere in there, it was pretty non-specific and ranty, but if we’ve passed a tipping point it becomes less a matter of applying a brake and more of actively causing massive climate change in the other direction. Failing that, the warming trend and other shifts will stop when the Earth reaches a new balance and no sooner.
Nobody really knows where those tipping points are. The Paris thresholds were our expert’s best guesses for a “safe” amount of warming.
Even if we do pass some kind of “tipping point” (and you need to understand that every tipping point is just an arbitrary line that climate scientists draw to try to draw people’s attention to the problem), we can still mitigate the damage. There is never a point where fighting climate change becomes worthless. The less we do now, the greater the damage will be in the future. That’s all there is to it. Tipping points are just a way of illustrating that.
every tipping point is just an arbitrary line that climate scientists draw to try to draw people’s attention to the problem
That is completely, utterly wrong. Climate scientists are talking about the physical concept of the tipping point, which is observed in nature and also comes out of their models. In climate, it’s the point at which reversing a change that originally happened over decades would take thousands of years. For example, this has been the huge concern with the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation (AMOC), which plays a large role in the climate of western Europe: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2791639/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_meridional_overturning_circulation
Especially read the sections about Stability and vulnerability, Effects of an AMOC slowdown, and Effects of an AMOC shutdown.
My point is, tipping points are absolutely not an arbitrary thing. They are very solid predictions based on the physics of the climate. We don’t necessarily understand exactly how close we are, even though we’re observing some effects of being close to them, but the impacts of crossing them will make climate change even worse and hence the alarm.
Edit: If anyone reads these links and your eyes glaze over and you don’t understand of word of what’s written, then you need the humility to listen and accept what climate scientists have been trying to tell you. Some of the smartest people on the planet have been working on this for decades.
If that’s what we’re meaning when we talk about “tipping points”, yes, they exist. But as you yourself said, “We don’t necessarily understand exactly how close we are.” The idea that passing some arbitrary line like “1.5 degrees” is a point of no return is unscientific nonsense, and that’s what the vast majority of people mean when they say “tipping points.”
And the point is, none of that changes the need to keep working towards improvement. Every fraction of a degree less the planet heats will make a difference. Even as monumental climate changes occur, those changes can be lessened, their impact reduced, by any amount that we decarbonise the atmosphere.
If you’re under the impression that I’m arguing against climate change being real in any way shape or form, or that I’m arguing against it being utterly catastrophic, you’ve missed my point so badly that you might as well be reading it in a different language. My point is very, very simple; there is never a point where we get to give up.
No matter what happens, every effort to reduce the damage to our climate will save lives. Things can always be worse, and because things can always be worse it ontologically follows that things can always be better, even when the definition of "better’ is “fewer people die.”
The fight isn’t lost or won. Get those concepts out of your mind. Suzuki - as brilliant as he may be - is an idiot for invoking them like this. He’s speaking about a very limited, very specific piece of the fight, but he should have understood that the public would take his words entirely out of context. The people who want to poison and destroy our planet for profit are, right now, actively pushing the propaganda that the battle against climate change is over. They are wrong, and they are lying. The battle against climate change is a battle to reduce harm, and you can always reduce harm, now matter how great the scale of the eventual harm may be.
I think it helps to look at other problems caused by fossil fuel use. Higher CO2 concentrations make breathing air worse. Ocean acidification kills fish etc.
(and you need to understand that every tipping point is just an arbitrary line that climate scientists draw to try to draw people’s attention to the problem)
It was the climate scientists that agreed +1.5 degrees was the threshold we shouldn’t cross, and yes, it’s too late.
It’s not too late to make things worse by giving up! /s
In your car crash analogy, we are now past the point where hitting the brakes will help. The car will be irrepairably destroyed and all passengers will be killed.
This is flat out wrong. In fact, the more co2 is emitted, the more extreme the consequences are. The change from 0->1 degree of global warming barely registers. The change from 3->4 degrees is catastrophical, for example.
Thus, the warmer it gets, the more worth it is to fight against it, as each small win contributes more to the bottom line than in the beginning.
Just put ice in the airbags.
That’s why it’s an analogy, and not reality.
There is no point where hitting the brakes will not help. We can always reduce the amount of harm done.
This seems like the “comforting fantasy” to me. Or a terrible analogy.
The comforting fantasy is the idea that we can throw up our hands and say “We lost.”
Losing is easy. It demands nothing from us. Losing has no call to action. If we’ve lost, then there’s no fight left to be fought.
The reality is that the fight is always worth fighting. And that sucks, because it means we never get to give up. We never get to say “It’s over”, and stop caring. Caring is a lot harder.
In not an appropriate analogy. We are not just the people in the car, we are the whole neighborhood.
Even if the people in the car cannot prevent a crash by braking, they can still prevent further damage to people and property by braking as much as possible while within their means.
Yeah, it’s more about the people in the car taking their foot off the gas so they don’t get going fast enough to crash through multiple houses and burn the whole neighborhood down. Still worth doing even if we’re well past the point of hitting the brakes preventing any damage.
I try to stay postive but we’re slowly burning and yet politics has never been so aggressively stupid about this. And the warlords dictating or culture too. I don’t want this.
the focus on politics, economics, and law are all destined to fail because they are based around humans. They’re designed to guide humans, but we’ve left out the foundation of our existence, which is nature, clean air, pure water, rich soil, food, and sunlight. That’s the foundation of the way we live and, when we construct legal, economic and political systems, they have to be built around protecting those very things, but they’re not.
Powerful truth!
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David Suzuki sucks. Seen him at restaurants here in town before. Treats waitresses like shit.
@asg101 I agree we’ve lost the opportunity and will have to “hunker down”. But hearing it from David Suzuki is…hard.
Giving up is exactly where the “too late” come from, quitter shouldn’t be leading climate advocacy.
I mean…the next steps involves lots of fire and death…so…that’s not going to save the environment either but it will certainly send a message.
Yep, Trump just put all our climate mitigation funds into big oil. We’re cooked.
And Trunp is bringing back coal too. Fucked doesn’t even describe it.
Lol yup, trump also went all in on climate denial. Definitely fucked.
